Pakmarriages.com

I have to say that this article is a load of generalisations and logically unsound. There is an element of truth in what she says but this article overall is pure tosh.
Its absurd to generalise about a coutry of 180 million on such small evidence...

Yes there are crooks in pakistan and there a ppl who only marry for a chance of getting a British passport but doesn't mean they all do...

I'm married to a Pakistani girl and am very happy thank you very much! And I know quite a lot of ppl who feel the same. At the same time I also know of the opposite case too. I think we should distinguish between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

(I would agree that it is probably easier to marry a British girl since we ARE Anglicised but marrying a girl from Pakistan doesn't have to be a disaster as long as you are both compatible and willing to compromise. I love Only Fools and Horses and also like Umar Sharif's stage shows. These are stupid and trivial examples. Girls from Pakistan often have much more Islamic characteristics compared with British Pakistani girls...then again it depends on individuals...)

Summary: she makes some very valid points but her mistake is to generalise from these incidents to the whole of the pakistani nation. if a white person was to say this we'd cry 'racist!'
 
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I could use better terms than 'pure tosh'!

Can't believe that a PhD graduate would write such unsubstantiated codswollop! Education obviously hasn't taught her much.

Talk about sweeping generalisations.....apart from some small truths, I actually find the article quite offensive!
 
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Being serious I think Dr. Khan makes SOME excellent points. (I wish she hadn't generalised though).

1. We are culturally pretty much Anglicised, especially we educated folks.
2. SOME marriages are undoubtedly forced.
3.SOME marriages are undoubtedly only to get visas for cousins etc. under parental pressure.
4. SOME of the people who come to the UK under such marriages are nasty pieces of work.
5. We DO have significant cultural differences and expectations of marriage compared to people from Pakistan (and India).
6. Pakistani culture IS patriarchal (but so is Islam and all 'traditional' cultures from the Red Indians to Japan.)
7. Islam DOES give the father the right to marry off his virgin daughter without her consent (at least in the Hanafi madhhab) as long as the person he picks is her kufu' ('equal'.) *
* kafa-at has very defined conditions in fiqh.
We might not like it but its a FACT.
8. The scientific evidence for the genetic undesirability of consangeous marriages is STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT.
9. However, I think that though marriage is a personal CHOICE for both parties it is probably better to marry from within the UK or other European countries than from our parent's country for compatibility reasons
10. But the advantage of marrying someone compatible from pakistan is that the children are more likely to know Urdu/Punjabi and for some of us that is as important as them knowing English. If my own child doesn't know Punjabi I'll be devastated (even though I expect English to be his main language) since Punjabiness is as much a part of my culture as being British or Muslim. We should be as proud of Ghalib as of Shakespeare and Del-Boy!(Islam being the primary definer of course but by no means the only one).
10. The truth is that a lot of the fault is also of us British Muslims. We guys often expect to sleep around and go out as before we got married and the wife from back home is just expected to grin and bare it all and do all the housework like a cleaner and produce our babies. We are incredibly arrogant and expect her to just take blatant womanising and not giving a toss because we did her the 'favour' of marrying her and bringing her to England! (Generally, women there have what we'd consider old fashoned views on marriage and expect their husband to fulfil their rights and be the breadwinner and romance them. We think once we've married them as a favour to our folks its enough and they should be happy to be in the UK whilst we have fun outside with 'goriyaaN'. And a lot of girls here when they marry a guy from pakistan treat him with open contempt like he's a servant boy and expect him to sit back and accept it whilst they go clubbing with their male friends etc. i.e. it takes TWO to tango.)

Discuss.
 
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People might not like my comments but its the blunt truth. Both parties are to blame. The reality is that in Europe marriage is increasingly seen as unnecessary and passe and European Muslims are becoming affected with this syndrome too (just a bit slower than our non Muslim compatriots. Houellebecq has nailed it.)
 
I'm sorry but the more I read of this webpage the more I'm getting vexed (and I'm a British Paki which she is supposed to be defending!). She seems to have a special hatred for people from the Mirpur area (from the language she uses --it is potohari/mirpuri --"maari" instead of 'saadi' and 'jaasi' instead of 'jaayegi' etc.)

I have to say she seems like a right ho!(Rant in Potohari: "'Sayee khoti lagni eh! Tarna! Yehne na maal! Unni mao ni..." :D

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a banner at the bottom saying, 'Sponsored by the BNP/KKK/RAW' its so bad!
:-)
 
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LOL...........LOL..............LOL.

I was typing a massive reply (in my mind) in answer to your post bro NJ, because I couldn't fathom out which article I found more hilarious and ridiculous...yours or Dr Khan's!!! But then I saw your above posts........and realised you understood why I found the site ludicrous and hence called her article 'codswollop'!

Generalisations are an understatement! She is blatantly discriminating.....she might like to defend that through freedom of speech, pro-womanism, anti-Mirpuri Brigade or simple British sarcasm/humor, BUT she DOESN'T Fool me!
 
7. Islam DOES give the father the right to marry off his virgin daughter without her consent (at least in the Hanafi madhhab) as long as the person he picks is her kufu' ('equal'.) *
* kafa-at has very defined conditions in fiqh.
We might not like it but its a FACT.
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Could you please elaborate on this.....I never knew this. JZK.
 
Well, insha Allah. (If you have reliance of the traveller you can check under the section on Marriage too [even though it is shafi'i]).

Here's Shaykh GF Haddad (a reliable Sunni authority) on the subject of kafa'at in general:

Kafa'a - Conjugal suitability


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Wa `alaykum as-Salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh:

An explanation or some learning is necessary about the fiqh of kafa'a or suitability together with adequate understanding of filial piety and trust in the judgment of elders and parents that act in the vast majority of cases for the greater benefit of their children.

For example, the suitability of a person from ahl al-bayt is that they marry another person of ahl al-bayt because it is far more probable that such a spouse will never insult "your family" and thus commit kufr because such insult might reach to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace if the family in question descends from him! However, if the proposer's piety is tested and satisfactory then he may marry a nasiba or sayyida even if not himself a nasib or sayyid.

More usual types of suitability involve social standing, wealth, ethnicity, nationality, beauty, age, marital state.... All this is not to say that there is inferiority or superiority, no; but there are wiser choices to be made so as to insure greater compatibility between not only two individuals but also their respective backgrounds and families so as to increase the chances for that bond - and contract - to be successful and blessed.

Recently I heard the retired qadi Shaykh Muhammad Murshid Abidin - son of Shaykh Abu al-Khayr the great-grandson of the author of the Hashiya - say, when asked about a son that married a pious but culturally and socially "mismatched" muhajjaba against the wishes of his parents who had long desired him and planned for him to marry his half-sleeved cousin: "He was wrong." Allah knows best.

Hajj Gibril
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And here is Sidi Faraz of Sunnipath with a really excellent summation of the fiqh of kafa'at in the Hanafi School:

SunniPath > Answers > Marriage, Family & Divorce > Marriage > Suitability in Marriage: Kafa'a
Question ID:601

Date Published: July 03, 2005

Suitability in Marriage: Kafa'a

Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

Question:


(1) Can a girl who is a sayyidah (i.e. a direct descendent of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam via Hazrat Ali and Sayyida Fatima alayhimus-salam) marry a Muslim who is a non-sayyid?


Answer:


bism01.jpg

Walaikum assalam,
They can marry if the guardian accepts.
(2) Will the nikah be valid if they go ahead and marry even if she is a virgin and her wali disagrees with it on the basis of kufu'?
According to the fatwa position in the Hanafi school, the marriage itself will be invalid.
In particular cases, one should refer to reliable scholars, especially when secondary considerations (such as pregnancy) exist.
(3) What if he is from the Quraysh tribe but not a sayyid can she still marry him?
It would be valid, yes, because all of Quraysh are considered suitable for each other. However, it is going against the sunna to marry without the guardian's permission.
(4) What exactly is kufu' and is it legally binding by which I mean can a nikah be considered legally non-valid in the Hanafi fiqh if the married couple are not each others kufu'? Or is it just for recommendation purposes and can the nikah go ahead and still be valid?
See below.
(5) Is an ajami man considered the kufu' for an Arabi girl? For example if I wanted to marry an Arabic girl would it be allowed in shar'iah?
It is allowed, pending guardian's approval, in normal cases.
(6) Is it true that a religious scholar ('alim) is considered kufu' for any girl even if he is an 'ajami and she is a sayyidah?
Yes, this is the relied upon position in the school.
What is this issue of suitability in marriage, Sidi? When does it count and what is the fiqh of it?
Walaikum assalam,
This returns to the issue of kafa�a (suitability). The discussion below centers on legal validity, not appropriateness. As for appropriateness: it is inappropriate and against the sunna, in normal situations, for a woman to marry without her guardian�s consent.
In the Hanafi school, a sane adult woman has the right to marry herself, even without the permission of her guardian (wali).
If she marries herself to someone who is a suitable match (kuf�) for her, then there is agreement in the school that the marriage is valid and binding.
If she married herself to someone who is not a suitable match for her, then the fatwa in the madhhab is that the marriage is invalid. This is the narration of Hasan ibn Ziyad from Abu Hanifa, and was chosen by Qadi Khan, Marghinani and the later scholars as the fatwa position in the madhhab.
The established transmitted position of Abu Hanifa (dhahir al-riwaya), however, is that even a marriage to a non-suitable match (ghayr kuf�) without the guardian�s consent is valid. However, the guardian (wali) has the right to take the matter to an Islamic judge (qadi) to seek to get the marriage annulled. This position, however, was not chosen for fatwa by the great Hanafi scholars, because of many factors.
Suitability in the Hanafi Madhhab
Suitability (kafa�a) of the man is the right of the guardian (wali) and the right of the woman. As such, if both drop their right, it is not of consideration. If one drops their right to consider the suitor�s suitability, the other�s right remains.
Therefore, if a woman marries a non-suitable match with her immediate guardian�s approval before the marriage contract, the marriage is valid.
If she marries herself to a non-suitable match without her immediate guardian�s approval before the marriage contract, then the marriage is not valid, because even if she drops her right the guardian�s right remains.
Suitability is considered at the time of the marriage contract, not after.
What are the considerations for suitability?
Suitability is considered in six things:
1. Lineage, if the two parties are of Arab origin;
2. Islam;
3. Freedom;
4. Wealth;
5. Religiousness;
6. Profession.
1. Lineage:
Arabs, according to the fuqaha, are those whose lineage is established to go back to one of the Arab tribes. Others are considered non-Arab (`ajami).
All of Quraysh (f: whether sayyid or non-sayyid) are considered suitable for each other.
All Arabs are considered suitable for each other, except that non-Qurayshis are not considered suitable for Qurayshis.
Non-Arabs are not suitable matches for Arabs.
Lineage is not considered for non-Arabs.
2. Islam
Muslim ancestry is considered in non-Arabs, not in Arabs.
Among non-Arabs, then, Muslim ancestry is considered with respect to father and paternal grandfather only.
Someone Muslim whose father is not Muslim is not a suitable match for someone whose father is Muslim.
Someone Muslim whose father is Muslim but paternal grandfather is not Muslim is not a suitable match for someone whose paternal grandfather is Muslim.
3. Freedom
(Of little relevance in our times.) The same considerations apply to freedom (f: i.e. not being a slave) as do with Islam.
4. Wealth
This entails the suitor possessing:
a) the amount of mahr (dowry) that is customarily given up front (f: not the whole mahr), and
b) a month�s support for the wife, if without a job, or being able to provide for the wife daily if with a job.
Beyond this, having little or much wealth is of no consideration in terms of suitability.
5. Religiousness
A religiously corrupt man is not suitable for a righteous woman with a righteous father.
A religiously corrupt man is suitable for a religiously corrupt woman, whether she has a righteous father or not.
6. Profession
This is considered in other than Arabs, and among Arabs who themselves work [f: i.e. as opposed to owning business interests, for example].
If the profession of the suitor and the woman�s father are similar in social standing, then he is considered a suitable match.
If the profession of the suitor and the woman�s father are disparate in social standing, then the suitor with a comparatively low profession is not considered suitable for someone of a high profession.
The customs of each land are considered in terms of the social standing of different professions.
Other considerations:
The rank of knowledge is greater than the rank of lineage. As such, a non-Arab scholar is considered suitable for an Arab woman even if she is from Quraysh (f: who, as mentioned, are all of the same rank in terms of suitability).
[Summarized from Qudri Basha�s al-Ahkam al-Shar`iyya fi�l Ahwal al-Shakhsiyya, items 62 � 69, with Muhammad Zayd al-Abyani�s Mukhtasar Sharh al-Ahkam al-Shar`iyya fi�l Ahwal al-Shakhsiyya, p. 64-70; these texts are based on (and correspond to) the relied upon position of the Hanafi school, as chosen by Sayyidi Muhammad Amin ibn Abidin in his Radd al-Muhtar `ala al-Durr al-Mukhtar, 2.317-329, Bulaq ed.]
And Allah alone gives success.
Walaikum assalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

MMVIII © Faraz Rabbani and SunniPath.
All rights reserved
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naqshbandijamaati said:
I'm sorry but the more I read of this webpage the more I'm getting vexed (and I'm a British Paki which she is supposed to be defending!). She seems to have a special hatred for people from the Mirpur area (from the language she uses --it is potohari/mirpuri --"maari" instead of 'saadi' and 'jaasi' instead of 'jaayegi' etc.)

I have to say she seems like a right ho!(Rant in Potohari: "'Sayee khoti lagni eh! Tarna! Yehne na maal! Unni mao ni..." :D

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a banner at the bottom saying, 'Sponsored by the BNP/KKK/RAW' its so bad!
:-)
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lol bro whats wrong with people from mirpur area thats where im from btw not all mirpuris speak potohari some also speak kashmiri like me, sounds more civilised and that website is a total joke since she sounds like a villager. the state of women in some pakistan cities like lahore and pindi are the same as here theyre all looking for a red passport lol. the women in pakistan are not so innocent, nj bhai i thought you woldve woken up from that myth.
 
the state of women in some pakistan cities like lahore and pindi are the same as here theyre all looking for a red passport lol.
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Ahemmm! Bro....irrational generalisations from Dr Sahiba were enough, surely your contribution is not warranted...even though you may mean them in jest.

Lets stick to the topic and not go down the route of defamation of the sexes...PLEASE.
 
correct me if i was wrong bro, but i guess even you know that what im saying is right. im not defaming the sexes, im just sticking up for the male sex since that woman criticised us a lot.
 
bro maulanax, if you read my posts carefully you'll see i WAS defending the male sex. bro, also i'm sure that some paki girls are not so innocent just like girls everywhere else. i never had that myth (well not once i met some of them at university...! boy!)

i agree. lets not resort to generalisations and stereotypes as SA01 has already gracefully said.
btw bro what's wrong with potohari?! :D
 
maulanax said:
lol bro whats wrong with people from mirpur area thats where im from btw not all mirpuris speak potohari some also speak kashmiri like me, sounds more civilised and that website is a total joke since she sounds like a villager. the state of women in some pakistan cities like lahore and pindi are the same as here theyre all looking for a red passport lol. the women in pakistan are not so innocent, nj bhai i thought you woldve woken up from that myth.
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there's NOTHING wrong with them. That's only what that stupid woman, Dr. Khan, seemed to think. So how is Kashmiri different from potohari? Can you give some examples? How do you say, "Where are you going?" Or do you actually speak Koshur which I think is the language spoken in the Kashmir Valley itself (under Indian occupation) and totally different?
 
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brother nj, the way we pronounce some words in kashmiri is different to potohari such as they say maare and we say mere and they say taare and we say tere. they say tu kudr chaleyye we say tussa kithe chaleyo. i hope you understand now bro no offence to you. no i dont speak koshur.
also where in mirpur do you live i live in kalyal when i go to pakistan.
 
bro, it seems i speak more like you do! i also say tussee kitheh chaliyo... bro, i'm not from mirpur ways but from dina.
:-)
i know of a lot of brothers from mirpur though...there seem to be loads of ppl from dadyaal everywhere in the UK :-)

do you use the word, 'paapa;?* (we don't) and 'achnee' and 'gachnee'? once i sat down and tried to think of the differences between how we speak in the dina area and how my mirpuri friends speak and those three words were the only things i could come up with.

* like the guy Paapa Mehboob Khan on DM Digital!
 
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Hey that sounds a lot like Punjabi!

All i know in Mirpuri language is "ki banay ho"
 
lol brother haroon we say kay akhne ho, bro nj we do sometimes say papaa. dina is that near pindi? im not from dadyaal thats where most of the jatt are from.
 
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