How to refute a modernist and his fallacies?

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maraqialFalah

As-Salamu `alaykum:

I have had discussions with modernists upon many issues, in which I have been insulted by these modernists (who claim to be "Muslim") and they have many corrupt beliefs which I can identify but it's hard to refute. They call me "extreme" and "narrow-minded" and tell me to become more open minded. I've also been called a hypocrite by these khabees fussaq people.

They have many un-Islamic questions that they ask me and many things that I hear from them (and many of them are in fact kufr), I know to be un-Islamic but they always stump me when I try to refute them.

They asked me many questions such as:

Modernist Mulhid/Fussaq said:
1. Do you believe that Islam is in need of modernization?
2. Do you believe Islam today is different than Islam 1429 years ago?
3. How do you judge what religion is true? For example, what if John X (an American boy who is born a Protestant) does a lot of research and ends up still being Protestant or if a Muslim-born American named Ahmad Y does a lot of research and ends up a Muslim.
4. What is the reason for religion? Is it to make us better humans?
5. Let us assume Islam is the truth. Then, how do we determine what form of Islam is considered true. For example, what if a Pakistan-born Sunni does a lot of research and still ends up being a Sunni or what if a Shia-born Iranian does a lot of research and still ends up being a Shi`a.
6. Do you believe Islam today is superstitious in it's practices?
7. Do you believe that all Mawlanas/Mullahs are bad? Also, do you think that the views of Mawlanas are already molded and that they use their proofs to prove their already molded views ?
Click to expand...
Astaghfirullah thumma al-astaghfirullah

In addition, these modernists hold the belief that the five daily prayers are not wajib and they say (wa `iyadhbillah) that it isn't in the Qur`an(which I know to be kufr--astaghfriullah thumma al-astaghfirullah) and some of these khabees fussaq hold that alcohol is permissible for consumption (wa `iyadhbillah). Also, they insult the Prophet alayhi salatu wa salam by making the following blasphemious claim (wa `iyadhbillah)

Modernist mulhid Fussaq said:
he (alayhi salatu wa salam) was not a good until he became a Prophet
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These modernist fussaq also make the claim that the Salah should be recited in the language of the people and that the Qur`an should always be read with translation. When I said that I eat all Halal/Zabiha (alhamduliLLah), they responded by saying "Ah it is only meat" (wa `iyadhbillah).

These mulhid modernist fussaq also claim that to follow anyone other than Allah (and following the Qur`an) is shirk (wa `iyadhbillah) and when I gave him the ayah: "ya ayyuhal aladhina amanu ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee al-amri minkum", he said that why didn't it specify which Messenger (alayhi salam), wa `iyadhbillah. I also gave many other surah, aHadith, etc. such as "fasalahu ahl al-dhikr in kuntum la ta`alamun", etc.

Another mulhid fasiq modernist made a claim about how religions were all founded by men to explain phenomenons in the world (wa `iyadhbillah)

In addition, another claim they make is that the beard is only there because it was a practice of the Arabs (wa `iyadhbillah) and it was personal preference (astaghfirullah).

Another claim these modernist fussaq make is that following the Sunnah doesn't make you better than anyone else (wa `iyadhbillah).

They have also said the following blasphemy against the Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa salim:

The Prophet in Makkah was not as good as the Prophet in Madinah
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wa `iyadhbillah

They have also insulted many `ulema such as Hazrat Allama Sayyid Turab ul-Haq Qadri damat barakatahum ul aalia and have called me "a talk Muslim" (and may Allah curse the mulhidin and the fussaq)

These mulhid modernist fussaq are involved in drugs, alcohol, and many other haram acts.

How do I respond to these and other claims that they might make? How could I learn mantiq and munazara to help me, especially since I don't know the jargon of `ilm al-mantiq and `ilm al-munazara and I can't understand Arabic texts ? Also, how do I respond to their personal attacks?

jazakamullah khayran.
 
another of these mulhid fussaq asked me to research on the following:

1) The mother and if the mother says no to something that is sunnah, should she be followed? (the mulhid fasiq gave the example of the "beard" which is wajib as per the Hanafi fiqh)

there was several other issues that this mulhid fasiq modernist asked me but i can't remember.

also, the mulhid fussaq modernists ask me:

Do you believe the way we do our prayer (Namaz and Salat) is only a Sunnah ?
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astaghfirullah thumma al-astaghfirullah
 
could a brother help me in responding to these accusations?
 
Also, another comment I remembered from my discussion with these mulhid modernist fussaq is that they said (wa `iyadhbillah):

Mulhid Fasiq Modernist said:
There is no proof for the existence of God because we can't see the proof of it.
Click to expand...
 
Dear brothers in Ahl`e Sunnat, it is time what we Ahl`e Sunnat raise the banner of haqq! So, please...help me in responding to these statements that are outright heresy and deviance, inshAllah
 
Brother I have read your posts and will try to formulate a response later this evening after work insha Allah to some of these common modernist arguments
 
These "modernists" are people from my mother's side of my family. Very corrupt people.

la hawla wa la quwwata ila billah.
 
brother, this apostate trash is similar to qadianis and agha khanis

you can refute all you want, but they're too drunk on the whisperings of shaitaan and are unlikely to listen unless Allah has willed khayr for them, from what you have written

they're not seeking the truth genuinely, but rather just looking for bloody lame excuses to form a separate group away from Islam, but only want to use the label of Islam for some sort of a pretentious "identity", because founding a separate religion/pseudo-religion would just attract too much scorn and too little fans, even if one is emperor akbar; people like this know very well in their subconscious that sometimes the best way to falsehood is under the banner of the truth
 
Sidi `Abd al-Qadir: What do you suggest I do? These people are relatives
and they do a lot of mental and psychological damage when I go to Pakistan.
 
If you think your Amr Bil Ma`ruf will work, go ahead. What you are saying makes me think they won't, hence just ignore what they are saying and occupy yourself with Dhikr of Allah when forced to be in their company and make sure your heart's connection is with the Ahl Allah and it hates it.
 
1. Do you believe that Islam is in need of modernization?

Bismillah, wal-Hamdulillah, wa Sallallah wa Sallama `Ala Rasulillah wa Alihi wa Sahbihi wa Man Walah, wa Ba`d:

The Qur'an as well as its meaning is preserved, as Allah says, "Inna Nahnu Nazzalna adh-Dhikra, wa Inna Lahu Lahafidhun". The text is preserved via Mutawatir transmissions and the meanings are preserved in the Ijma` and opinions of the `Ulama al-Muttaqin.

2. Do you believe Islam today is different than Islam 1429 years ago?

Yes it is, the Qur'an and Sunnah have been preserved accurately, along with the Ijma` and opinion of the majority of `Ulama. It is up to you whether you put into action what the `Ulama have preserved of this religion. This is all in so far as three aspects: `Iman - Beleif, Islam - Practice, Ihsan - Excellence/perfection/spirituality.

They may counter your arguments saying that culture has changed. We are not talking about culture though. In addition, what they may percieve as culture, like the Sunnah of the `Imamah, is what is chosen by Allah for our Ummah. These things are indeed preserved too.

3. How do you judge what religion is true? For example, what if John X (an American boy who is born a Protestant) does a lot of research and ends up still being Protestant or if a Muslim-born American named Ahmad Y does a lot of research and ends up a Muslim.

That is so vaguely worded, I don't think it is worth responding too. Anyhow, "reseach" is not the measure by which we decide which religion to subscribe to. The sole criterion is TRUTH. This is done using logic. For more on this angle, make them read the following article, and if they disagree with it, force them to give evidence for their whims. Read the Article

You would think that the average reasonable man would know the above, but it appears not.

4. What is the reason for religion? Is it to make us better humans?

The reason for religion, or to be more precise in our case, revelation, is to inform us as to what our lord has decreed. There are limits to the senses, and these things require reason. In the same way there are limits to reason e.g. you will never know about the Sam`iyyat with reason, will you? These things require revelation. Without these clear realities, given to us by revelation, one can never be at peace. Sh Hamza Yusuf (I know your views regarding him, focuss on these ideas though) made a good point once, when he said that there is a pain in your heart which will never be removed until you beleive. You may try and numb them with TV, Music, popular culture and even drugs (and in the process kill yourself) wal `Iyadhu Billah, but it always remains, till you submit. Hence, revelation offers us Sa`adah - happiness.

5. Let us assume Islam is the truth. Then, how do we determine what form of Islam is considered true. For example, what if a Pakistan-born Sunni does a lot of research and still ends up being a Sunni or what if a Shia-born Iranian does a lot of research and still ends up being a Shi`a.

As I said before, "research" is not the criterion, "truth" is. As for Shi`ah, there are many logical contradictions in their fairy tales. I once wrote a not-so-well-written piece on this topic around a year ago, about the fact that Imam al-Husayn fought Yazid since he beleived him to be a Fasiq and he was absoutely correct. The Shi`ah claim Sayyiduna Abu Bakr, Sayyiduna `Umar and Sayyiduna `Uthman to be Fasiqun as well, Astaghfirullah, so why didn't Sayyiduna `Ali rebel against them? They say it was Taqiyyah, yet he was the lion of Allah, not fearful of anything else. There are many such logical contradictions in their fairy tales. As for the Wahhabis, they are Mujassimah. Allah created time and space yet their god is contained in time and space (!), Kanallah wa La Shay'a Ma`ah. It is clear that only Ahl as-Sunnah is the truth.

6. Do you believe Islam today is superstitious in it's practices?

Allah created the laws of the universe. He gave us instructions on how to interact with it. What is superstitious about that?

7. Do you believe that all Mawlanas/Mullahs are bad? Also, do you think that the views of Mawlanas are already molded and that they use their proofs to prove their already molded views ?

A proof, providing it is sound, makes what it prooves the truth. Thus, if whoever they accuse gives a valid proof, they have to refute the proof, rather than picking on the individual's motives.

Wa Sallallah `Ala Sayyidina Muhammad, wa Alihi wa Sahibihi wat-Tabi`ina Lahum Bi Ihsanin Ila Yawm ad-Din, wal-Hamdulillahi Rabb al-`Alamin.

Keep me in your Duas,

Was-Salam
 
:s1:

Sidi Maraqi, since Sidi Suleiman has done such a sterling job, I no longer need to reply! I would just recommend a couple of books which might help you:

1. To improve your logical thinking and to detect phoney arguments (often employed):

-A Very Short Introduction to Logic [Oxford University Press]
-The chapter entitled, The Art of Baloney Detection in Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World (attached as a PDF in this message).

2. To show the overall logic and beauty of Islam as a complete system suited to the modern world
Unveiling Islam by Roger du Pasquier

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unveiling-I...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265319719&sr=8-2

(translated by TJ Winter!)

-Islam and the Destiny of Man by Gai Eaton
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Islam-Desti...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265319867&sr=1-5
-The Bible, The Qu'ran and Science by Maurice Bucaille

3. Books on Why Religion/Spirituality is still Relevant

Path to Sufism by Ghazali :ra: (translation of al-Munqidh min al Dalal) - brilliant look at WHY religion, specifically spirituality, is the only path of absolute certainty, told by al-Ghazali in his autobiography.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Al-Ghazalis...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265320938&sr=1-1

4. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saint-Teres...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265320999&sr=1-1

(though not a Muslim book, obviously, this will appeal to the modernist crowd you refer to since it isn't by a Muslim!)




-The Risale e Nur by Beddiuzaman Said Nursi :ra:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rays-Intell...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265321242&sr=1-2




And for very good answers for many similar questions commonly asked:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/ and
the Audio Files section "Amman: The Coherence of Islam
Brief Replies to Commonly-Asked (“Difficult”) Questions about Islam"
(this is very useful to answer modernist mindsets and I recommend it despite the recent disagreement over the kidhb issue with NHK. (Though I feel guilty about this particular recommendation as it opens me to charges of hypocrisy.)

I would recommend everyone to read the above if they haven't.
 
Also, how do you know what logical fallacy applies where? he easiest ones are appeal to ignorance, begging the question, etc.

Harder ones are confusion of correlation and causation, etc.
 
InshAllah, if I remember any more accusations they have, I will post their accusation here for responses inshAllah
 
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