Dars e Nizami Course Details

Discussion in 'Syllabus, Curriculum, Reading Lists' started by Juwayni, Apr 13, 2019.

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  1. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    any updates on this?
  2. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  4. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Thank you
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  6. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    @abu Hasan would it possible to get a curriculum subforum? I've friends that could contribute. If we had a dedicated place for curriculum discussion it would allow for me to direct them and for topics to be gathered in one place
  7. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As Salāmu ʿAlaykum,

    In terms of some of the work of our ʿUlama in responding to these philosophies, one 3-volume work in Arabic that I know about is Shaykh ul-Islām Muṣṭafā Sabrī's Mawqif al-ʿAql.

    To my knowledge the scans above don't have a table of contents, it would be helpful if we had a list of topics covered in each chapter.

    In his book "One of the Last Ottoman Sheyhülislâms, Mustafa Sabri Efendi. (1869-1954): His Life, Works and Intellectual Contributions", Mehmet Kadri Karabela mentions about this work:

  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that's interesting. didn't know about this.
  9. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Tanqeed Aql Mahaz (A Critique of Pure Reason) - Immanuel Kant:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2019
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  10. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Additionally, some of these books are actually translated into Urdu. Perhaps some of our advanced students of knowledge and ʿUlama might be able to start a response to modern philosophical ideas and notions.

    Disclaimer: I don't endorse that which does not agree with Sunni creed in these books and am posting the links for critical and analytic refutation purposes - to identify those ideas in their philosophies that disagree with ours, and to identify those ideas that don't go against with our creed.

    (Some of these sites will require making a free account such as Rekhta for more page views)


    Falsaf-e-Maghrib ki Tareekh (The History of Western Philosophy) - Bertrand Russell:

    Hikayat-e-Falsafa (The Story of Philosophy) - Will Durant:

    Ifadiyat (Utilitarianism) - John Stuart Mill:

    Politics & Colonialism:
    Communist Party Ka Manifesto (The Communist Party's Manifesto) - Karl Marx:

    Das Kapital - Karl Marx:

    Aazadi (On Liberty) - John Stuart Mill:

    Moallim-e-Siyasat (The Principles of Political Economy - not 100% sure if this is the English title) - John Stuart Mill:

    Socialism - Freidrich Engels:

    Ishtiraki Roos (Soviet Russia) - Hewlett Johnson:

    Saqafat aur Samraj (Culture and Imperialism) - Edward Said:
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  11. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Well actually... Abdullah Al Andalusi was running a course on that recently.* he says:

    "In 2014, I wrote an article asking “Why doesn’t everyone study the West, like we study Ancient Egypt?” [1]

    Now the study of Occidentology is starting soon in the UK Insha’Allah!

    Why is the West (currently) the most technologically and militarily advanced civilisation? Don’t know the difference between a Fascist or Nationalist? Don’t know what ideology Conservatism is? Can’t tell the (detailed) difference between a left-wing liberal, socialist, progressive or radical? Can’t explain the difference between a liberal and a Liberal? Don’t know the difference between a neo-conservative and a conservative? Wondering why Conservatives attack Liberals, but criticise non-Westerners for illiberal beliefs and practices? Don’t know how liberals justify wars, or even left-wingers can be intolerant? What do liberals mean by “freedom”, when all parties are happy to limit speech and actions to some degree? What is even the actual justification for ANY of the liberal values and beliefs touted by their advocates? And what is the historical basis and circumstance that gave rise to them?

    Don’t even know what any of the above terms even mean?

    This is the course for you.

    Occidentology (Study of the West) is the objective study of Western civilisation, its beliefs, history and development of a distinct civilisation from others – from an outside and objective basis. It uses the methods of Egyptology, but applies it upon the West. This study is very different to:

    1) Study of the West from it’s own perspective. This is usually taught at universities – and assumes that Western philosophy and cultural values are universal and objective (much like the Ancient Egyptians viewed themselves and their culture).

    2) Study of the West from a prejudiced perspective (or Occidentalism). Like the Western study of the ”East” (Orientalism), Occidentalism is a study of the West designed to be critical and dismissive – usually employed as a counter to Western Imperialism, Colonialism and of course, Orientalism. While critique may be deserved, it does not help knowledge to enter into a subject with prejudice or a priori assumptions.

    The study of Occidentology will adopt a non-judgmental, objective study of the West, but with the key difference that it will treat the West like any other civilisation under study. Most people studying Egyptology, or Mayan civilisation, do not usually adopt prejudices to it, mostly because it is considered a dead civilisation of which political considerations could never possible re-exist. However, in order to understand how to engage, interact with, and live in, Western Civilisation, an objective, detached and ‘outside the box’ study would be of tremendous benefit to both Muslims and the wider world.

    As many people who study Roman or Greek civilisation, may start with a historian of Rome, like Tactius or (one of the) Greek city-states, like

    Thucydides, so we’ll start off with examining the famous writer and philosopher, Bertrand Russell, and his own self-appraisal of the history and development of Western Civilisation. The course will compare his appraisal with ancillary material, historical record and other sources to give both his view, and a wider picture.

    The course won’t contrast Islam with the West, it will equip the student to be able to understand the West, and Western philosophy, in order to contrast any of its beliefs, culture and history with their own – just like Egyptology would.

    This course is a must for anyone who wishes to understand the West, and more importantly, engage with it, its societies or (in countries it has influenced) its ideas and politics."

    *As a note, apart from being invited to do talks and teaching in certain places, I don't know of any evidence to say the man isn't Sunni. As for the institute he's delivering the course through, the person running it (Moinul Abu Hamza) is studying with Birmingham deos but my source says he's still gotta learn about the issue with the Deos and that will proceed in due course. He was involved in more activist type circles like HT and recently moved away from them. Just thought I'd make that clear when quoting what Abdullah Andalusi's course is about.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    well said.

    those books were written as a response, and rising to the challenges of their times. in our times, we need analysis and refutation of various philosophies - unfortunately, in this department madrasas across the world impart zero knowledge - or are even concerned about them. [there may be there are exceptions such as al-azhar etc where contemporary issues are discussed/researched, but ordinary madaris and from whence ulama come to address commonfolk are zero in this dept. wAllahu a'alam.]

    it is the duty of scholars to study philosophies and ideas that challenge islam and the shariah, and then analyse their arguments and present cogent defence of our viewpoint, in addition to refuting such criticism/challenges/opposing-viewpoints etc.

    what i have seen so far, is that this space is largely occupied by liberals, modernists, apologists, perennialists, pretenders-to-sunni-faith, neo-mutazilites, etc. very few genuine sunni scholars such as sh. saeed foudeh are around - and even he speaks/writes in arabic! shaykh asrar has been doing a few talks recently which is a very welcome development. but otherwise, any prominent voice from the subcontinent in this department in urdu or english is absolutely nil - unless i have missed it. please update if you know of other voices.

    at least, they should be given a primer on western philosophy. say, bertrand russel or will durant.

    please excuse my chronic whining.

    some reading:

    watch feynman on 'why' and how would it look if i said the same about kalam and existence etc:

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
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  13. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As an aside,

    Its perhaps time we ought to consider unifying the persuit of knowledge. Rather than state school and madressa from 5-7pm and as the child gets older part time Darsi studies, we ought to consider private schools that analytically assess the darsi curriculum, the needs of the time, and the wealth of Islāmic literature on various areas and reformulate a syllabus that aims to first help students fulfill farḍ ʿayn and then go on to farḍ kifāyah sciences. A syllabus that practically illustrates some of the issues discussed in books. As an example, if a student is studying chain analysis for Ḥadīth studies, this could be part of epistemology where the student critically assess how the media operates, how we get our information, and the reliability of some reports over others.
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    thereafter, i stumbled on shaykh abdullah sirajuddin's sharh of bayquniyyah. which is very easy and an excellent introduction. i had a PDF and even after hunting for a printed copy for many years (i.e. local availability) i couldn't find one. a dear friend from damascus presented this to me recently. alHamdulillah.

    also, in sha'Allah, an english translation with some notes will be published by Ridawi Press soon. wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  15. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Consider the current state of affairs in the UK. RSE means filth will be taught to the youth soon. Identity politics, social marxism, materialism, secularism, etc etc etc.

    What need is there to study Sadra when much the evil we see today finds its roots in Foucault and company? Ok some say that in order to read Rāzī we need to have studied that philosophy but isn't this where a new primer or a really good hashiya of his books would be used?

    Moreover, what issue is there in removing books that talk about dead philosophy or dead religions that are no longer around? We would be better served refuting the evils of our age.
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  16. Who on earth told you that you need to understand the 'aqali and naqli they go hand in hand. Which nisaab of Dars e Nizaami are you referring too?
  17. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    I actually think the Darsi syllabus is the best thing out there. Done under the proper teacher nothing comes close to it. It thoroughly prepares a student for specialization into any Islamic field thereafter.
  18. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    Is it not true that much emphassis is given in the Dars-e-Nizami syllabus to mantiq and falsafa and less to tafsir, hadith, tasawwuf and aqidah?
  19. Yasser Rashid

    Yasser Rashid Active Member

    Both views are true that:

    1. Dars e nizami must be updated with regards to certain subject fields and

    2. Works must NOT be taken away whatever.

    To maintain tatbeeq (agreement) we must keep ALL the darsi subject works regardless of how outdated we may percieve a certain subject or book.

    And in order to update the subject, it is believed, the cryptic works, as brother Abu Hasan calls them, for indeed they are, must be re published in exact form save that only this time the new print has enough English (or urdu if need be, but better in english) marginalia written by competent students of knowledge from the UK.

    So, for example, instead of teaching 'an introduction to logic' per se, it'd be far more beneficial if some competent student does English footnotes or marginalia to a work such as mirqah after reading and studying several such English works on the chosen field.

    Thereby we'd be saving the hassle of adding any books, which would make the syllabus long winded, as well as saving the hassle of referring to non Muslim academics or scholars.

    Also, another benefit would be, inshaAllah!, Ahl al Bid'ah, from whom we presently see the need for purchasing books from would eventually be buying ours. Thereby they'd probably also promote our quality ta'liqat by teaching therefom. And thereby, if I was to be over optimistic, they'd become Sunni. InshaAllah

    People who write such notes preferably, not necessarily, should use names such as "Abd al Mustafa" etc,

    Sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam!

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