Haqiqatjou's Madhkali Inquisition & Official Aqidah of Deoband on contentious issues like Istighatha

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Ibn Rida Safdar, Dec 3, 2022.

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  1. Abdullah91

    Abdullah91 New Member

  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    absolutely. this is an idea abu nibras and i have been discussing at least since 2007. and unlike some other groups, our access to resources and funding is limited. on top of this is our extreme reluctance to do crowdfunding.

    some day things will change. if not us, some other sunnis will undertake this task.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  3. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    Whilst I take the point that ulema have their own duties which they might not be fulfilling, merely noting it on this forum will do nothing to bring about change. The only way to change is to bring out better ulema - and the only way to do that is by inputting better students into the system in the first place. And that responsibility does fall onto the shoulders of we the people.

    My understanding is that there is an Islamic basis to the belief that our political leaders are a reflection of us. If we take bribes, then all they do is take bigger bribes. If we oppress the people we have power over, maybe our parents or wives or children (consider how desi culture is inclined to slap up children at the sign of any infraction), then the political leaders do the same thing over those who they have power over. I don't doubt that there needs to be top down change. But there also needs to be bottom up change too. And the bottom up change is the only type of change that's actually in our hands but we largely spend time on thinking about what others can do instead.

    I know this thread isn't about politics but I mention this because I see the situation with scholars being analogous. What we input is what we get back out.

    In reality, I suppose it's all cyclical. If we have top ulema to inspire the public, the public will be more educated and pious and create more top ulema and the cycle continues. Chicken and egg scenario. However, if I'm the egg, I can't sit around asking the chicken to do his job and complain if he doesn't do it. And vice versa. Don't get me wrong, I do love to complain too lol. But we gotta take care of our side of the cycle.

    As for teaching the talented professionals who are interested in the religion- this is basically what faraz's website does. We need a sunni version because the demand is there. Courses teaching Arabic, grammar, various levels of aqeedah books. Our version of Abdullah Al andalusi and Daniel H aren't going to pop up out of nowhere. In the current climate, if a smart Western physics student from a top university (which is what Daniel is, I think) wants to learn, how would we possibly reach him? These deos etc have all kinds of organisations waiting to capture the talented ones, we don't have similar set ups.
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  4. Abdullah91

    Abdullah91 New Member

    Mawlana, would you consider teaching Sharh al-Aqa'id online to serious students?

    Apologies for my bad adab but I think it would be very beneficial.
  5. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    I have no issues with is nor do i hate them, my only problem id as stated was because the arab ulama do not know the differences between the sunnī's and the deos when they quote the major deo "scholars" our awam who watch the arab ʿulamā' (albeit with subtitles) will/would get confused by this and may even be lead astray. The arab ʿulamā' maybe under the impression that the ikhtilāf is to do with mawlid or other issues, but the real issue is the blasphemous statements they made in their works against Allāh ﷻ and the Messenger of Allāh ﷺ, which is something we are aware off. Allahu Aʿlām
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Daniel clarifying his own position - namely that his position is to oppose liberalism and the obvious war on Islam at a fundamental level

    listen from 1:00:13 onwards, him citing his appraisal of the work devbandis have supposedly done. an emotional Barelwi might write him off as a devbandi stooge*, but his overall larger picture and the work done for it needs to be acknowledged and Barelwis should be having our own duaat for addressing those same issues of tackling the overt war on Islam in general, and also harnessing talent like this

    * at this point, i'm not too sure if he knows about the blasphemies of the 4 tawaghit or worse yet agrees with zaleel's justifications of them, but he clearly is standing very close to the edge of the cliff with zaleel ready to push him off. it's our job as Barelwis to try our best to reach out to uninformed people such as this.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
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  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    deen was, is, and will be upheld through Arabs. there are no two opinions on it. Imam Mahdi will be an Arab, despite the uncountable number of awliyaa, pious sultans, and scholars that our non-Arab world has had. despite how great our 3ajami scholars may be, even those that the Arab world looks up to (Imams Bukhari, Tirmidhi, many many more), we have to be thankful that deen has come to us (ie our great scholars) from Arabs. love of Arabs and sincerely holding them in high esteem is from iman (of course, doesn't apply to kafirs or mubtadi3is). might sound counter-intuitive in this age of Islam-filtered through secularism and human rights, but that's what it is.

    don't forget Ala Hazrat too sought fatawa from Arab scholars, on the 4 tawaghit, despite knowing his ruling was correct. ironically, devbandis learnt from Ala Hazrat and have done a better job than most of us (Barelwis, AFTER Ala Hazrat) of communication and liaison with the Arab ulama. i might get flamed for this but i firmly believe that barring some illa ma sha Allah few good men, mostly the Sunni ulama have just cashed in, hijacked, and outright abused the name, legacy, and salam of Ala Hazrat.

    the corollary to your statement is that desi Sunnis assume Arab to mean wahabi by default, something I have personally witnessed first hand from not just laity but even mawlanas! you will see enough desi mawlanas who haven't had any exposure, personally or by books, who hold all of Egypt or Morocco or Syria in contempt! i personally can't stand that sentiment, and it is a direct result of desi mawlanas preaching that sentiment to the masses, directly or indirectly.

    as for the actual point, you made:

    a good percentage of non-desis just see the Barelwi-devbandi conflict as just useless bickering over semantics and similar to the india-pakistan conflict, Arabs being the largest percentage for the obvious reason mentioned above, but even others like Turks, Indonesians, etc. many reasons for it as discussed in preceding posts.

    even high profile wahabis say that the differences between Barelwis and devbandis are just cosmetic and superficial and they too are misguided "soofees" and "qubooriyyeen" just like us. their lack of principles and chaplusi might have earned them a few sporadic accolades with the wahabis in the past, but that too hasn't been sustainable for them, because the devbandi has no form or foundational principles. he's just like a low class politician begging for votes and saying anything anyone wants to hear!

    agree with you. it takes two to tango (taali dono haathon se bajti hai). not just political correctness, but awam and ulama are equally to blame.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
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  8. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    Asalam Alaikum,

    Agreed we did not how to sell

    Could you provide us with some of the commentaries on ḥadīth by our ʿUlamā' the only i have seen which gained prominence was Sharḥ Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim By Allamah Ghulam Rasūl Saʿīdī.

    Another problem that we have is when arab ʿulamā' quote from the likes of ʿllā al-Sunan or Bazl al-Majhūd or Maʿārif al-Sunan, this what will cause our future generations to go astray, because when lay sunni awam here the arab ʿulamā' quoting these books they see who the author is then get influenced from them and we see with our awam that this have this inferiority complex when it comes to arab ʿulamā' and wil blindly follow them and i belive the root cause is the Arab ʿulamā' not knowing the differnece between the sub continent sunnīs and the deobandis

    Jazakumullahu Khair
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is one part of the problem. and a serious one.

    if our scholars are not well-versed with modern science, modern philosophies and speak/write english, how will they be able to confront the challenges of the age?

    i will put you off if i make another list of books. but without reading - one will not be able to either understand the other party's argument nor have the linguistic capability to refute them in their own language.

    ideally, a scholar should be sound in sunni aqidah. by this, i do not mean one or two aqidah texts taught in madaris (some of my ulama friends tell me that even sharh al-aqayid is not completely and comprehensively taught). he should be aware of our positions and answers given by our ulama to age-old philosophical objections: the problem of evil, existence of God, pre-destination and free-will, etc. the scholar should be well aware of modern philosophies.

    refutations of philosophers in the past were mainly greek philosophers who are all passe. today we have to refute: neitzsche, dawkins and dennett, hitchens and harris. bertrand russel's: intro to western philosophy and will durant's works are a good starting point. stanford philosophy site is necessary reading and reference. ( https://plato.stanford.edu/ ).

    one idea to get our foot in the door is to 'train' sunni professionals, who are high-achievers in dunyawi disciplines - train them in aqidah and kalam. make them specialists in kalam, and once they are trained they can bring out the skills they learned in mastering worldly knowledge.

    i try to bring these mabahith in reach of english speaking professionals and introduce them to kalam, as much as my little knowledge permits.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    abu Usman likes this.
  10. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    This is spot on. This is why the onus of engaging/refuting/responding to the likes of Usman Bradfordi, DH, Uthman ibn Faruq et al. lies not on the senior 'Desi' Ulama but English speaking sunni scholars. Sadly, the sunni response has been largely missing except a few voices. This can only be rectified when such voices grow stronger and are supported by the sunni laity.

    Humbly disagree. If an individual commits a mistake, it's unfair to blame the entire maslak or the torchbearers. But when you have a dominant trend of laxity and carelessness amongst the masses, it's fair to assume that there are some deep institutional problems with the community. The primary responsibility, if not the blame, lies upon the visionary leaders of the community to help the awaam set their priorities straight. I believe that Barelawi elders have been exceptionally vigilant in discharging their Ifta responsibilities. However, the pitfall of the movement has been its challenges with Dawat-o-Islaah of the masses. Giving exemplary fatwas from your Hujrah is one thing, and setting institutional reforms to take that message to the awaam is another matter. Consider the following example:

    Why do you think the Deobandi awaam refrain from engaging in innovations while you'll find ample examples of foolish behavior at Mazaars from the supposed Sunni laity?

    The former also mostly hail from Sunni forefathers who would have engaged in similar practices in their times. Deobandi scholars are often less vocal in their condemnation of innovations than the scholars of Bareilly. So how do we explain this phenomenon of Deobandi awaam listening to their scholars, unlike large segments of Sufis/Sunnis? While there are many factors behind this, one of the major ones is the presence of robust 'Dawah institutions & mechanisms' amongst Deobandis:

    • Sunni Mufti declares music / Taziya / Tawaf around graves as Haram in his written fatwa
    • Sunni/ Sufi laity never get to hear the name of that mufti, let alone the fatwa. They just know Ajmer and attend Friday prayers
    • The Imam of the mosque is afraid of speaking against Taziyah due to the risk of getting fired by the 'Goofi kameti mimbran'
    • The Sunni laity never learns the boundaries of Shariah

    Contrast this with how Deobandis dealt with their goals of preventing their followers from innovations and even valid practices like Mawlid:

    • Deobandi & Ahl e Hadith Mufti declare Mawlid as haram. Gets an earful from the sunni awaam.
    • Deobandis are quick to realize that vocal Najdism is bad for their PR. Unlike Ahl-e-Hadith, they begin adopting sly practices to gain confidence of the Sunni laity.
    • Tablighi Jamaat is launched as an institution to coax the masses into their folds, using sweet tongued "Deen ki baat", Jods (read: feasts) etc. They categorically stay away from public repudiation of sunni beliefs & practices.
    • Once Tablighis have put respect of Ulama e Deoband amongst the masses, the Deobandi Imam of the mosque feels confident in showing his true colors.
    • The new converts go on to coax other sunnis in this ponzi scheme. They are clear in their priorities, unlike Sunnis.

    The latter approach did not appear out of thin air. It was the result of smooth coordination b/w the Tablighis running the markaz, the Deo Ulama appearing in their annual ijtema, and serving at the guiding force from behind the scenes. Another example: The door-to-door fundraising by Deobandi scholars (for which they obviously get a commission / salary) is miles ahead of Sunni fundraising. This powers their Huffaz producing madrasas which further power their strategy of capturing sunni mosques. I am not* defending the questionable & sly practices adopted by them but merely highlighting how they have a robust system in place to propagate their sect. We have certainly have had many great sunni scholars propagating the maslak in their individual and limited capacity but sadly, this has not been done at a large scale. But, it's never too late to start...
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
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  11. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    Agreed. In the video with UiF, he was oblivious of Hayati Deobandi position and attributed it to Barelwis. He also said that Dr. Wajidi's video helped clearing misconceptions about the Deobandi Manhaj. (here)

    All this goes on to show that he isn't a staunch Deobandi but has simply been hijacked by them as they were quick in their PR game and seized the opportunity.

    JazakaLlahu Khayra for clipping the videos on the telegram channel.
  12. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    I think a lot of the 'what did we produce' is partly due to severely lacking in the English language. If you look at the people doing the most work against modern Western philosophical issues like liberalism etc, it's largely the wahabi kids on YouTube. With the sufi madhab following anti wahabi work, this has largely been done by people hanging out with hamza etc. We're catching up with the likes of shaykh asrar.

    In reality, the fault is not that of the scholars. The fault belongs to the public because scholars are created by the public. When the public is happy to send their smartest kids to public school to become doctors and only send kids to become scholars of they're messing around and not getting good grades as if the job of the Islamic school is to now turn them around... And if the public wants to spend all their money throwing notes on naatkhwans, how can the masjid committee be blamed for organising more of such gatherings... They're giving the people what they want. The people don't want serious academia.

    If the public wants our scholarship to be modernised (not modernism but modern in the sense of good quality videos, scholarships, books), then we have to get their own act together first. We're the ones holding the movement back- not the scholars at the top.
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is the propaganda which unfortunately even our own have come to believe.
    what we produced is not only superior in quality but also in quantity. but it is true, we are not organised - we have not approached this issue from a PR perspective.

    in other words, our ulama / activists did not know how to sell.

    in sha'Allah that will change.

    but this was a question, i was genuinely interested in decades ago as i stood at the edge of the forest. i was told that there was nothing in it. a few wild haggard men stood outside laughing and mocking at us. "the trees are not good even for firewood" they guffawed. those walking with me were mortified but they did not have an answer. i wondered whether it was just a few trees and undergrowth or if the forest was really deep and rich. fortunately, i ventured in - and i found that it was rich and green, and within it contained beautiful orchards. there were huge trees with large clearing underneath for one to sit and sleep - and the trees had fruits. there were streams of fresh and clean water running silently and gardens with fragrant flowers. and sweet singing birds. and it was never dark - the sunlight stole in and kept the warmth. and i did not come out...

    in sha'Allah, you may get a glimpse of it too.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  14. Ali_Bash

    Ali_Bash Active Member

    They produced massive comentaries like Bazl al Majhud fi Ḥal Sunan Abī Dāwūd by the deviant Saharanpuri, or the likes of ʿIlā al-Sunan by Zafar Aḥmad Uthmani or Awjaz Masalik Sharḥ Muwaṭṭa Imām Mālik, and what did we produce? NaatKhwans of which most them dont even have understanding of Islam and at times blast out kufri statments, same with those who give out bayans, I believe the problem whilst we spent so much time either refuting these deviant groups (rightfully so) and fighting a battle with the Tafḍīlīs who have crept in to the sunnī's that advantage has been take from this by the deos. Allahu Aʿlām
  15. Zubair99a

    Zubair99a New Member

    It is at 11:31 where Dr Wajidi quotes Palanpouri.
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  16. Hassan_0123

    Hassan_0123 HhhhhhhM_786

    What time in the video does he talk about salafis and say they are a part of ahlus sunnah? جزاك الله خيرا in advance
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    case in point - Barelwis, despite their "best" efforts are way behind devbandis in spreading their manhaj to non-desis, and acquiring talent like this Daniel or mentoring such people. effort and talent is still wasted on disco notekhwani, bayanbazi, a3ras as opposed to grassroots level educating of people be it in classical aqidah and fiqhi masail or refuting new fitan like feminism etc.

    DI & SDI are doing awesome work at the grassroots level, and in fact even better than the rotten tablighi jamat which as per devbandis themselves, is mainly composed of "bilkul bekar" people just looking for an insular business network - but not at all times and places, and also behind devbandis in catching up with non-desis - just my opinion

    an obvious example - taqi usmani is a household name in Islamic finance and on the advisory boards of many many Islamic finance houses, desi or not. i'll concede my ignorance on this, but i personally can't think of a Barelwi counterpart in the same field. Perhaps Marhoom Shah Turabul Haq sahib is one name that comes to mind but in a Pakistan specific context and not global... and after him, I'm not sure who can be called an advisor and subject matter expert on Islamic finance that Islamic financial institutions can go to...
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  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Show them this munajat by their kingpin thanwi that I posted in this thread.

    How's it not shirk according to these fools?

    https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/usman-devbandi-on-hadir-wa-nazir.14724/#post-71139 (post # 3)

    As for haqiqatjou, I feel he's a sincere convert from shiaism and he's more focused on refuting the war on Islam by atheists and liberals.

    Poor chap has been hijacked by the devbandi monkeys jumping up and down, like zameel, Abdullah moolla and others. He's also gone overboard in his skepticism of the pandemic, lockdowns, and vaccines.

    If zameel and Abdullah moolla really have courage, let them either agree with haqiqatjou on his full fledged skepticism of anything pandemic, vaccine, and social distancing, or let them inform Daniel about what a stooge of the empire devbandi head honcho taqi usmani iş (he was pro masks, lockdown, social distancing, vaccines everything). Can't have it both ways.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2022
  19. Ibn Rida Safdar

    Ibn Rida Safdar New Member

    After Daniel Haqiqatjou was publicly questioned by Madhkalis like Uthman Ibn Farooq on issues related to Takfir, Khurooj and Deobandi beliefs on Hayat al Anbiya, Wahdat ul Wujud etc., we saw a series of video responses coming from the Deobandi camp:

    We also saw an interesting response from Dr. Yasir Nadeem al Wajidi defending Deobandi position on some of the above contentious issues. Dr. Wajidi is a Deobandi scholar who works against Islamophobes, Arya Samajis, Ex-Muslims released upon Indian Muslims by Hindutva forces. He was born in Deoband, completed his graduation from Darul Uloom Deoband and has been a vociferous supporter of the Deobandi movement. In defence of Haqiqatjou's association with Deobandis, Dr. Wajidi clarifies the official position of Deobandi movement on some of the issues between Salafis, Deobandis and Ahl al Sunnah in his video response here:

    1. He clarifies the Deobandi understanding of the concept of Wahdat ul Wujud
    2. Hayat al Anbiya: He clarifies that there are two groups within deobandis wrt. this particular issue, namely, Hayati and Mamati Deobandis. What's interesting is that he claims that both of these groups are part of Ahl al Sunnah. This is in direct contrast with Yasir al Hanafi claiming (with the usual al-Muhannad thumping) that Mamatis are not part of the Deobandi movement and Ahl al Sunnah.

    3. Istighatha: Dr. Wajidi presents a fatwa from the official Ifta website of Darul Uloom Deoband on this matter and clarifies that Istighatha is deemed as Shirk by the Deobandis. He clarifies that Deobandis only allow Tawassul and not Istighatha.

    4. Sifat: Dr. Wajidi clarifies his position and that of his teacher Saeed Ahmad Palanpuri (ex-Shaykh al Hadith of Darul Uloom Deoband) that Salafis are part of Ahl-al-Sunnah
    فَائِدَة‎ (fāʾida):

    1. The above video from Dr. Wajidi presents a better and holistic picture of the Deobandi Movement's stance on the above issues, than the watered down version presented by the likes of al-Muhannad thumping western deobandis like Yasir al Hanafi. This video should be clipped with appropriate titles (eg. Official Position of Deobandis on Istighatha etc.) and shared by Sunnis to spread awareness the reality of the Deobandi movement. Telegram channels like https://t.me/RealityOfTheDeobandis should waste no time in translating this into arabic for the wider Muslim community.

    2. Secondly, Uthman ibn Farooq and Haqiqatjou mentioned Barelwis during their discussion. The entire narrative that these people run is that the discussion is whether Deobandis follow Qur'an and Sunnah, whilst it's wrong assumed that Barelwis are already out of the question due to their supposed Shirk (Istighatha!). Barelwis should take note of this opportunity and release a response highlighting their agreement and disagreement with the above two groups on topics like Wahdat ul Wujud, Istighatha etc. (Free resource to anyone looking to refute Salafis: The Ahl-e-hadith scholars of the Indian Subcontinent promoted the concept of Wahdat ul Wujud)
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