Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Khanah, Nov 25, 2023.

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  1. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Not only that, but throwing money on them is imitation of the faasiqeen who throw money on dancing women or singers or other types of entertainers, in numerous cultures around the world. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the whole concept came from originally, actually.
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    And it will save from ostentation too.
  3. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    also, why people cannot give money to the naat khwan at the end of the naat, why is it necessary to shower it?
  4. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    it is haram to shower pakistani currency because the backside of the bills has this text;
    حصولِ رزقِ حلال عبادت ہے

    though it is not verbatim a hadith, but conveys the meaning of similar ahadith, such as this one;

    طلبُ الحلالِ فريضةٌ بعدَ الفريضةِ (al mu'jam al kabir)

    even if it is not a hadith, the text is related to our religious ethics which must be respected.
    Mohammed Nawaz likes this.
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Alahazrat says many ulama forbade throwing money.

  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    given the present scenario in Pak viz-a-viz shi'i influence among sunnis, what should be the hukm on these naath reciters?

    I don't mean the manqabat itself - but the "zeenat e stage" - one who whom is dressed as a rafidhi (probably is).

    I don't watch him ever - but I guess he is popular among sunnis for his "new-tarz" recitations - so I thought hafiz tahir qadri at least would know better.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Btw, Owais Raza himself admitted in some video that his typical sleeping time is after Fajr.

    This is also the case for most well respected and well known naatkhwans of Pak.

    Modern naatkhwani is halal nightlife in Pakistan. Why should the liberals and secularists be the only ones to enjoy a nightlife scene? We Sunnis will too. Besides, show me a fatwa from Ala Hazrat that says it's forbidden to stay awake all night, moreso in an act of worship like naatkhwani!

    I don't know if it's the case in parts of India too with naatkhwani nightlife, certainly not in UP though (for the most part that I know of).
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Maybe it is... If only the muftis of our times were not copy-paste people, and had tafaqquh and hikmah like muftis of Ala Hazrat's times

    The muftis of our times will fire off a copy-pasted ruling from Fatawa Ridawiyya or Alamgiri, based on typical subcontinental rattafication*, without even considering if it can be or needs to be altered or revisited. Like all well trained fuqahaa and people of tafaqquh and hikmah, Ala Hazrat espoused the dynamism of rulings based on these 6 factors

    اَسبابِ سِتّہ یہ ہیں : (۱)ضرورت (۲)حرج (۳)عُرف (۴)تعامُل(۵)حُصولِ مَصلَحتِ دینیہ (۶)دفعِ مُفسدات

    (فتاوٰی رضویہ جلد اوّل مُخرّجہ ص۱۱۰)

    *Allah forbid if you ever cross question them on the rattafication Fatawa by giving them current context. You will be jeered at with comments like - whose mureed are you?, What are your own qualifications?, Don't fly and think of yourself as an aalim just by reading some Facebook posts, do you realize you're objecting to Ala Hazrat or Shah Abdul Haq or Ibn Abidin?

    Erm, mufti sahab, we're just asking to learn. We are just giving you the current context for the ruling so that you can either revalidate or revisit it... Not questioning your ijtihadi prowess

    Try talking to a mufti about the ugliness of the chadar, niyaz, and phool businesses at dargahs. Did Ala Hazrat advocate for tabdhir in visiting graves of awliyaa by offering 1.25 lac chadars? Try talking about this disco naatkhwani culture, Or alcohol based sanitizers, and many such things. Most will not be your friends if you "cross question" them.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I didn't suggest it's an excuse for making a spectacle out of it. I was just thinking about husne zann. That's just something I've heard.

    As I said, I personally don't like Owais Raza. I think in the last 25 yrs he's done an excellent job of promoting naatkhwani among the masses, but also promoted it as a profession and a fashion statement. I do not like him, but I can also understand people who do appreciate him.
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    that's hardly an excuse for making a spectacle of it.

    Besides, does every na'at khwan do it? But this money-shower has become an indispensable element of almost all mahafil.

    So, if the people in some locality, cannot manage enough moolah, they will keep stacks of 10 rupees bills ready for the shower. Those who are slightly better off will keep higher denomination bills.

    So the 'ruhaani' mahafil have given way to these "whose was the more shiny" contests.

    The other day I came across an ARY na'at video (host was amir liaqat) - the venue was brilliantly decked with chandeliers and a pool complete with black swans - and the camera man too was careful not to miss any of these embellishments.

    So, how many viewers had been admiring the swans and the gauds is anybody's guess.

    showering notes in wajd? wow, that's a new one for me.

    someone please tell me, is there any aspect of deen left which we have not turned over it's head to please our nafs and still pat ourselves on the back?
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Is there such a thing as a controlled wajd?

    Will those people also tear off their clothes, hand over their inherited properties too and make announcements that I have decided to name you as the new owner of my 50000 sq.ft. home and my Mercedes? Or will they just shower 50 notes of 2000 rupees in wajd and then switch it off? :)

    I mostly agree with your sentiment, as mentioned in my post #7. My sentiment is probably harsher.
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, I am not even considering the "niyyat" part or the ilm-vs-zawq balance.

    This thing has always stung me because of the brazen flaunting of "dunya" - whereas naa'at mahafil are supposed to drive out the dunya!

    So, here the message going out is:

    1. sarkaar ka karam = money
    2. waare-nyaare = money
    3. meri baat ban gaae hain = money
    4. mera kaam chal raha hai = money

    so this "karam" is not available for the poor Imam who has spent his life serving the congregation but can't afford to marry off his daughters.

    It's not available to the poor mawlana sahib who doesn't make efforts to become a har-dil-aziz celebrity. He still has to subsist on madrasah wages.

    And just think of the youth watching all this - what will he dream of becoming in the future? If his voice is pleasant - will he rather take up hifz than na'at?

    In crowd there might be a daily wage labourer wondering why this "karam" is so selective in nature..

    When hazrat rabi'a was asked by al-Mukhtar (صلى الله عليه وسلم) what he wished to have - to name anything in the whole wide world - did he ask for this "karam"?

    In a well-known sahih hadith the Prophet (peace be upon him) warned us: I do not fear that you will turn renegades after me, but I fear that the dunya will be opened up for you.

    This dunya is now making a regular appearance in our na'at gatherings - donning the deceptively innocent hood of "bakhsheesh".
    Noori, Qadiriyyah, AbdalQadir and 3 others like this.
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Actually it's too Desi for our Desi tastes.

    A Sünni Pakistani mufti sahab I saw on YouTube, rightly called it "halal mujra"

    This kind of neochawar was never done in Muslims gatherings of naats or qawwalis or milads.

    Such neochawar used to be done by nawabs, princes and so on, on hookers and dancing women; or on eunuchs.

    hindus do it at their bhajan gatherings, but I don't know if they always did it, or it's a new phenomenon with them or if someone learnt it from someone else.


    I've heard Owais Raza and some other naatkhwans use this neochawar money for deeni pursuits like helping Madaris, publishing books etc. It can be true or can not be true too.

    No doubt not all naatkhwans are like this (good intentions) and many actually sign up for mahafil on conditions of specific compensation either in cash, kind or neochawar.

    Just like peeri, naatkhwani too is a big business in Pakistan and it's an established mafia too of naatkhwans.

    Personally, I don't like Owais Raza and his try hard khateeb attitude. People shower on him too and he doesn't resist @sherkhan


    I might get flamed for this by fellow Sunnis and certainly I'm not a mufti but my personal opinion is that in our times the ruling on naatkhwani and qawwalis should be the same, whatever it is.

    Either both deemed unallowed for laity, due to the more harmful influences contrary to maslaha, than any benefits for seriously religious people.

    Or both deemed allowed as really we live in these times where we can consider them as lesser evils compared to mahafil of outright fisq like bollywood songs etc.

    I personally see zero difference between a present day qawwali gathering and a naatkhwani with disco style neon lighting, dancing, and notes showered and so on.

    Personally, I feel going back to the era where naatkhwani and qawwali were two distinctly different things, is just a pipe dream.

    Allahu a3lam
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In the video, you can clearly see Owais Qadri being handed the notes and urged to shower it. He didn't shower his own notes!

    BTW, I'm not defending his action.
  15. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    I recall Owais Raza Qadiri saying in a video that he doesn't permit throwing notes on him but maybe he changed his opinion again.
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    And where do we draw the line? What I've said above makes sense. I don't think you'll find a mufti who deems throwing money haram or tahrimi but as above, we really must start considering the age we live in. Most people don't know basics and here we are providing such entertainment which is actually a delusion that as long as we sashay at na'ats, we'll be OK.

    Nothing to do with tastes. We can't have an educated public until we prioritise education above na'at culture.

    I know this won't happen but it should: until a man knows his fard ulum, he doesn't get entry to a na'at event. Yes, if it's an educational gathering with some na'ats, that's fine. But we have numerous events that are just na'at and this is creating an ignorant public.

    This is related to the recent threads about tabligh.

  17. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Is it too desi for our western tastes?

    The simple message seems to be this kalam or sentiment deserves reward. Sh Owais Qadri doing the dishing may be a sign he thinks this is how naat khwaan should be rewarded.
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I'm not saying what's happening is haram but the principle seems similar to what's described here:

    I say that because one can claim they have the purest intention when doing certain acts during na'at gatherings. Allah Knows best.

    But how do we differentiate between someone in a genuine state and ostentation? Again, there are fatawa of Alahazrat that deem it fard to have husn al dhann when one sees someone in a state of 'wajd' but doesn't one have to consider the age one lives in? When open sinners suddenly become ashiq e rasul ﷺ and do all sorts.

    At such times, I feel even the qualified ones should abstain. Similar to the sama' issue.

    Open to correction.
    AbdalQadir likes this.
  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    In wake of the recent events a lot has been said about less than heart-warming mahafil - for example here

    I came across this today and was saddened by the manzar.

    The rain-of-notes is timed to the ash'ar - for example, when the naath-khwan mentions "karam" or "waare-nyaare" etc.

    What message are you sending out to the sunnis?


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