Shaykh Asrar meeting GFH and Shaykh Foudeh on kadhib

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by SaadSohail, Aug 11, 2020.

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  1. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    I contacted shaykh Saeed Fodeh on June 2020 pertaining to the issue of Imkan Kidhb. I asked him regarding how the deobandiya are saying that you in your unpublished work endorse the view of Imkan Kidhb. (This is what the deobandiyah claim; bold is there for emphasis).

    He denied that explicitly. Whether he is writing a book or not on the topic IS TOTALLY irrelevant. Anybody can write a book. Clearly that's not prohibited. What he had to deny, he denied. That's what matters.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hmm i must have missed this. but what i know is that shaykh saeed's comments on the Divine Speech are not about imkan kadhib.

    as for his opinions about alahazrat reaching taftazani's level, he should be asked on what basis is this comparison made? we can say the same about taftazani in comparison with some others - but how do you make a comparison? perhaps take sh. saeed's judgement - which would raise the question, how does HE compare with alahazrat using the same yardstick?

    a fair comparison of taftazani would be with sharif jurjani, who is more perceptive and insightful than taftazani - someone can even substantiate with examples showing how jurjani is more precise than taftazani in many places because we have similar works. and since they were contemporaries, and neither accused the other of plagiarism, we can safely assume that sharh al-maqasid and sharh al-mawaqif were written independent of each other. while the former appears easier, the latter is more perceptive. [feel free to reject this as i don't have time now to provide examples. these are hints for anyone who is interested to work out and validate my opinion. Allah knows best]

    and anyone conversant with books of kalam knows that later ulama have criticised some of taftazani's positions - qari himself in his works comments in various places about the 'sharih' [he means taftazani].
    SaadSohail, Unbeknown and Umar99 like this.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    tahiris - are passe. they will fizzle out once the man is dead. most will come back to the fold.
    dormant rafizis - brought the fight in the open. everyone will now be forced to take a stand. so they will also be weeded out.

    perennialists and atheists are the biggest concern. this is like a bush fire. perennialism has localisation. in india, it is the gunga-jumna tahzib and 'ram nam satya hai' disease [al iyadhu billah]. in the west, subtle and not-so-subtle forms.

    the need out of the hour is sound aqidah drilled into our kids. they need to not only learn our methods of establishing the validity of a report - but also stop blindly following the western method of imagination, fantasies, hypotheses and conjecture as hard facts.

    i did a random search and picked an article from the first page of the search. take this article for example:

    you would probably think that they have already a reliable mechanism and it is just a matter of computation. the title, the opening line etc hint at this.

    but if you blink you will easily miss this:
    so without reliable methods to measure xenon how do you know that xenon is trapped in organic matter in primeval rocks?

    check this one:

    they looked at something NOW and concluded that similiar thing might have happened 'back then' and you just need to dig and find the sources and you will find xenon in those tubes. and once we find a reliable method of measuring xenon, we can tell you exactly how much oxygen was in the atmosphere.

    look at the 'picture of the black hole'. i am amazed at how many 'scientific minds' simply accept without demur that it is indeed a 'photograph'!

    but the same people frown on method of induction - and when it comes to faith, they thunder: facts, facts, facts.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  4. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    It is very unfortunate that GF Haddad did not take those books, articles seriously else he would have warned his Shaykh, Hisham Kabbani

    I am telling you brother, as days pass by it is becoming clear, that some are only worried to increase fan-base and muridin. They aren't interested in taking a stand for HAQQ.

    It has become very obvious. The only brothers I have found who stand with HAQQ are on this forum. Who are not seeking for piri-muridi business. Who are interested in teaching others Pakka Sunni Aqaid.

    My deepest apologies if I hurt anyone's feelings. This is how I see it.

  5. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    Again the video which was released recently, Shaykh Saeed Fudah clearly states that he has a book, yet both you and Mawlana Abu Hasan say something else. The Shaykh himself is saying he has authored a book waiting to be released and you say you spoke to the shaykh and he said these are lies by Deobandiyyah.

    Also, kindly get from Shaykh Saeed Fudah endorsement of Hussam al-Haramain and on the heretic aqida of Deobandis, or least a statement because this recent video says something different.

    Shaykh Saeed Fudah Transcript of the Video on Deobandis and Barelwis:

    The Barelwis and Deobandis they are at odds
    However, they both belong to the Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamaah
    There are issues with the Barelwis and there are a few issues with the Deobandis
    However, specifically regarding the Barelwis since you were speaking regarding them.
    They are in general from amongst teh Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamaah
    However, they have a few problematic issues which stem from their fanaticism for their shaykh.
    Shaykh Ahmad Rida Khan al-Barelwi
    and he is a scholar from amongst the great scholars
    however, there are certain matters which he made mistakes regarding and he did not clarify
    or address them in a detailed fashion and we at the end, beloved brother,
    do not attribute ourselves
    I do not attribute myself to the Barelwis or the Deobandis nor any sect within Ahl al-Sunnah
    that vehemently opposes and refuses to acknowledge the others amongst them
    We all should attribute ourselves to the Ahl al-Sunnah in a manner that encompasses
    their differences of opinion. Rather this is one of the biggest principles
    that a person must try their utmost to uphold
    some of the gross errors which certain people fall into
    and from amongst them are the Barelvis

    despite my deep reverence for them
    and my knowledge of the great efforts which they strive for
    there are certain matters which they have made mistakes regarding
    and have shown obstinacy regarding
    and similarly so the Deobandis
    in certain matters they have acted irresponsibly
    as a result of their influence from the Salafis regarding a few matters
    However, this is known
    I am not the one
    who has discovered them
    Those who know the Deobandis and Barelvis
    know this all quite well
    However, the matters which I disagree with them regarding
    I debate them on
    and I have written regarding this matter a few books
    and a few brothers, I believe attended with me
    8 or 9 years ago
    we had a discussion regarding one of the papers of Ahmad Rida Khan
    in which he spoke regarding the speech of Allah
    and we read the entire thing, I am not sure if anyone here was amongst those who attended
    Are any of those who attended here?
    There were more than a few brothers like Samir al-Ubaidi and so forth
    We had this at my house
    this lesson I mean
    we discussed it and made clear
    more than a few places of error
    and similarily regarding the matter of Imkan al-Kadhib I wrote a book
    I pray to Allah that He allows its release
    I made clear in there, the errors which the Barelwis fell into and the errors
    which the Deobandis fell into regarding this topic

    understood ?
    Even regarding a matter as big as this
    so, in general, as you asked, the Barelwis are from the Ahl al-Sunnah
    They have issues which stem from bigotry exclusive to them
    I personally oppose them regarding such issues
    Yet, it's possible for others to agree with them,
    However, they are from amongst the Ahl al-Sunnah.
    and from amongst those who attribute themselves to it through correct madhabs (both in fiqh and aqidah)
    and we ask Allah to inspire us and them towards serving this religion.
    Oh beloved brother, differences of opinion are evidently present amongst the Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamaah
    You know that we are not speaking of the status of Ahmad Rida Khan al-Barelwi.
    Ahmad Rida Khan al-Barelvi, what's his status?
    He did not reach the level of al-Taftazani, nor even a tenth of what al-Taftazani was
    and he wasn't...even if they say that he was the last of the mujtahids
    This sect highly exaggerates the status of their scholars.
    This is something that is known
    However, yes, he was an alim, excellent, great and magnified and so forth, however,
    What I say is that we must say he made a mistake if he did, we must say that he made a mistake.
    Those that we take as an example as people of true guidance those scholars which were
    exponentially better than him even such scholars we do not follow any of their mistakes
    do you understand?
    The point which I am trying to make is that if the likes of Imam al-Razi made mistakes regarding a few matters
    he made mistakes regarding a few matters
    Imam al-Razi made mistakes. and he is who he is and he is who he is Ahmad Reza Khan al-Barelwi
    nor 100 of those similar to him can compare when al-Razi is mentioned
    Yet we say openly, Imam al-Razi made mistakes and the scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah
    explictly mention some of the mistakes of Al-Razi even in their texts which they teach to small children
    Do you understand how the matter is?
    This is not a way of degrading al-Razi, rather it is true reverence for his status
    and a means of protecting his lovers from being duped by that which he made mistakes regarding
    This in no way whatsoever diminishes the status of Imam al-Razi
    Do you see how the matter is?
    If we are to say that al-Barelwi or so and so made a mistake this shouldn't be something
    that is hard for someone to accept or to get angry regarding from him we are saying that
    scholars who were far greater than him made mistakes and I believe that Imam al-Razi
    would be overjoyed to hear of us admitting this when he hears this
    Do you understand how the difference is now?
    This is in a summarized fashion
    sherkhan likes this.
  6. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    I could have easily posted the screen-shots here brother. But i donot want that. I haven't asked the Shaykh's permission. And these are really bad manners to post them in this way.

    Donot trust me?
    You Vouch for a guy that you trust. (Preferably brother Abu Hassan)
    I could send him the screen shots of our short discussion on the issue of "IMKAN Kidhb" and his alleged "unpublished work" which the deobandiya claim rids them of their kufr. But i donot want these screenshots to be made PUBLIC.
    Jazak Allah

    One should always ask the deobandiya to bring evidence for their claims. That's how rational conversations go.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Such as... tahiris, perennialists, dormant rafzis? Curious who you had in mind.
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you are doing reverse of generalisation. a generic comment applying on a specific issue.

    if you notice, i told you that about the kadhib is muHal issue sh. saeed has no reservations.

    this is a separate subject and not related to imkan kadhib. as of now, there is a detente. so far shaykh saeed has only hinted at some things. this is an academic issue and unless he goes public with it, we will not bother him. if he writes or publishes a book, and if his objections merit a reply, in sha'Allah, it will be given. but as of now, there is no need to indulge in speculations.

    what i understand is his stand on shaykh akbar ibn arabi. he chooses to follow mutakallimin like taftazani and ali al-qari on this matter. as alahazrat has said, we consider them sunni imams who made an error. in spite of some differences, sh. saeed is a sunni ash'ari scholar. i have read many of his essays and have found him to be intelligent and well-informed about not just islamic aqidah, but also western philosophy.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    i understand sh. asrar's concern [or so i think]. i understand sh. saeed's concern. while my opinion on the devbandi issue has not changed for the past 22-23 years online and even further back, i am also aware of that even bigger monsters are prowling around the garden of ahl al-sunnah.

    those who have not read sh. saeed's many maqalat, will not understand his focus or motivation. so i understand from his perspective, as an outsider he will not really appreciate the devbandi problem. mainly because devbandis are open munafiqs and they don't hesitate to lie.

    i am not. but someone i know is. beyond this i don't want to hint how i get information. i know a lot of people, even if a lot of people do not know me. there is no need to waste time on guessing games.


    i don't like to say these things... but this is the truth. i would be happy to be proven wrong.

    the 'philosophy' or 'hikmah' taught in madrasas has very little value in our time. this is greek philosophy of aristotle and plato. a lot of those ideas are deemed archaic and hence obsolete. there is no point in flogging them NOW.

    our elders would read the books of critics, understand their objections argument and then reply.

    how many graduates from islamic seminaries in our lands - i mean the subcontinent - are aware of modern philosophies and post-modern ideas of the universe? and the many objections raised on our beliefs and their answers?

    the need of the day is not just someone who has read 'sharh al-aqa'id' but someone who can explain sharh al-aqaid and answer objections of modern science, cosmology, philosophies, within that framework.

    it is a steep challenge - but not impossible. wa billahi't tawfiq.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
  9. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    May Allah make your tongue true, since you are in contact with Shaykh Saeed Fudah, you can easily prove me a liar by getting a statement from him or endorsement of Husam al-Haramain or a statement saying that Deobandi belief is putrid and deviant. That should be very easy for you, because this video was recently released and circulating all over facebook and twitter (few months ago)

    and shaykh is admin and runs the forum and it was mentioned on his forum itself that he is working on this subject, however since you are intouch with him perhaps Shaykh Jalal al-Jahani from Holland too, you may very well get a statement from the shaykh on the Kufr of Deobandiyyah.

    Also, ask the shaykh to explain his video calling for Deobandi - Barelwi unity, ask him what mistakes did he find with Mujaddid e Hind AlaHazrat !!!

    a leading mutakallim comments on aqida matters without due diligence and investigation ?

    Sorry i am just not comfortable with such scholars.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is the same information i have received from a scholar i know, who is in touch with sh. saeed foudeh.

    rest assured, he is 100% with sunni aqidah that kadhib is muHal. and he should know it well as a leading ash'ari mutakallim of our time.
    he is no keller who doesn't seem to know basic kalam terms.

    Allah knows best.
  11. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    Asalamu Alaikum brother,
    BE VERY WARNED and FEAR ALLAH, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE A PROOF to substantiate such an ugly claim.

    I personally CONTACTED SHAYKH SAEED FOUDEH on this issue. He said it is a lie propagated against him by the DEOBANDIYAH.
  12. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    Dear Aqdas bhai,
    handing over book by Shaykh Asrar to GF Haddad means very little
    GF Haddad already read the arabic original of Alahazrat on the takfir of the deobandis and the deviancy of Nadwa. He also read the arabic book of mawlana Fadl e Rasol.
    Despite knowing all the facts he defended deobandi kufr saying his shaykh Muhammad Alawi Maliki has ijaza from deobandis. You can find this on the internet. He didn't care about haqq rather he went further and defended deobandi position claiming it is Ashari position.
    Same thing with Saeed Fudah who was writing a book on the subject of Can Allah lie from the Ashari point of view but hasn't published it yet. You can double check with your sources or contact Saeed Fudah and aak him about Hussam al Haramain.

    As for Waqar786
    i am very much aware of Pir Mehr Ali Shah and Pir Jamaat Ali shah and their support of Deobandism just like Pir Karam Ali Shah.

    just because some arabs like Louay Khalil or some indo-pak sunnis defend or support deobandis that doesn't mean the haqq is with deobandis. It could very well mean either serious blunder by these scholars or incompetence.
  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @ramiz.noorie... Sh Asrar is getting to the heart of the issue; which is blind following. This is what caused all the issues and any unity with the deos can only based on the Hanafi Matarudi creed.
    Alahazrat's creed is in line with the Hanafi Matarudi creed, it's the deo elders who deviated. With regards to the fatwa of kufr, Sh Asrar affirms it. It will be down to Zameel and co to prove why Ala Hazrat is wrong in an objective manner. This is not going to happen.

    If any positions of our elders are not correct, then we can't be like the deos (on the whole, we don't tend to be) and blindly defend them, because they are not ma'sum.

    I know you like to see the Deos getting bashed but that is not going to achieve anything. Our elders put fires out not inflame them further.

    I personally despise the deos more than the salafis because at least with the Salafis they are open about their (abhorrent) beliefs unlike these hypocritical Deos who have an aqida for every stage. I would expect them to even worm their way into places of influence in Iran.

    No need to take down the video because it lays down a challenge that the deos would never rise to... be objective about their Akabir... Never.

    That's the crux of the issue. They will add RA after the name of Pir Mehr Ali Shah despite Pir sahib's aqida being exactly the same as Alahazrat. They can't get the past Hussam ul Haramain and that's only because of their blind following. This is what Shaykh Asrar is tackling.
    Baba_07 likes this.
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    He said unity can only be achieved IF devbandis disown their passages of insult. He isn't calling for unconditional unity.

    As for GFH, on the same day, Shaykh Asrar gave him The Killer Mistake, Preamble to Faith, Truth about a Lie, Who is Alahazrat and if I remember correctly, Minhaji Fata Morgana too.

    Arab scholars who are Sunni, we need to educate.

    See, the difference between Shaykh Asrar and others is, he is clear in his view regarding devbandis. He publicly affirms Husam al-Haramayn, refutes devbandis openly, promotes Alahazrat.

    Let's say Shaykh Saeed Foudeh came. He has said devbandis are Sunni because he won't be aware of their beliefs. All they see is Hanafi Maturidi. Would we distance from him? We shouldn't.

    As long as a scholar himself is very clear and public about his stance, he should meet others without compromising his views.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    Baba_07 and abu Usman like this.
  15. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    I personally think, Shaykh Asrar Rashid should remove the 4 hour video.

    Apparently, Shaykh Asrar Rashid is calling for the Deobandi - Barelwi Unity under the umbrella of Ashari-Maturidi Kalam. What is with saying that Both Deobandis and Barelwis should be ready to refute the abhorrent opinions, I understand this is for Deobandis but how he can say this for Barelwi scholars, what if Zaleel Deobandi comes up and says: Take back the Fatwa of Takfir of Alahazrat or Alahazrat holds errornous opinions.

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid also needs to disassociate himself with Gibril F. Haddad

    This was in late October 2019, where he invited GF Haddad. We all know that GF haddad calls for the unity of Deobandis and Barelwis and sees no problems with the 4 Deobandi misguided scholars Ashraf Tanawi, Khalil Ambetvi, Rashid Gangohi, Qasim Nanotvi


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