The character of Ashraf Ali Thanwi

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by غلام رسول, Jul 30, 2021.

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  1. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    I didn’t say that wanting protecting oneself from Fitnah is a sign of sexual perversion or a negative thing, I was talking specifically about Thanvi’s situation. The problem is that you are looking at that particular example alone, when I intended for it to be seen alongside the other pieces of evidence. sherkhan explains it perfectly:
    At any rate, I concede this point and accept that this was not the best example to use.
  2. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    it is seen on numerous occasions in biographies of scholars and saints, that their avoidance of beardless boys is seen as a praiseworthy matter and is mentioned in order to show their noble character and behaviour.

    the quote regarding imam al-aaZam can be found in radd al-muHtar, 5/233:

    Screen Shot 2021-08-12 at 1.30.14 pm.png

    it is mentioned in tatarkhaniyyah: muHammad ibn al-Hasan was beautiful and abu Hanifah would seat him behind his back during his lessons, or behind a column, out of fear of betrayal of the eye, despite the perfection of his taqwa

    this is also recorded by other scholars.

    would it be appropriate now for a najdi or rafiDi to attack the imam based upon this? of course not. muslims of the past saw this as a praiseworthy thing, to avoid such fitnah. they did not see it as some kind of sexual perversion or "homosexual tendencies". neither did they see it as exposing one's sins, as there is nothing sinful about experiencing desires and temptations.

    it is simply unwise to include this as some sort of negative point, as this can also be said for great scholars.
    abu Hasan likes this.
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother we don't need to work with assumptions on whether he acted on his nafsanic whims or not when we have so much hard evidence for his perverted state of mind.

    the reason i'm not with you on that particular comment is because our enemies will latch on to this comment of yours and not all the hard evidence you have given. this is a standard devbandi tactic, they love to focus on diversions where they have the minutest leeway. they will pick on a spelling mistake and not talk about blasphemy!

    i too had mentioned one of the things you mentioned here, on another thread - (just so you don't think I'm advocating for the murtad)

    i dunno maybe im thick, but i don't see the difference between the two statements

    i don't see how a comment in the sense of "i wanna safeguard myself" is construed as detailing one's sins.

    btw, i appreciate this thread. i don't like us to be on the defensive just unscrambling devbandi propaganda. i like your offensive approach.
  4. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In light of the other examples I’ve given, I think it’s fair to assume that Thanvi had at some point acted on his tendencies. His complete lack of shame when making such obscene statements makes it clear that protecting himself from Fitnah was the last thing on his mind. If he were so concerned about Fitnah, would he have written such filthy stories in his books and then have them printed and sold to the common people. What did he expect to come from doing so other than Fitnah.

    It is possible for Awliya to be tempted by the Nafs and Shaytan, but that is a personal struggle, they don’t reveal such details to their Murīds like Thanvi did, and they certainly don’t write them down, print them and give them to the public to read like Thanvi did.
    The Shaykh is واجب الاحترام. If the Shaykh tells his Murīds and students to keep young boys away from his private room, not just to ‘protect himself from Fitnah’, but because he doesn’t trust his Nafs “مجھے اپنے نفس پر اعتماد نہیں”, will there be any respect left for the Shaykh in the eyes of the Murīd. If the Shaykh isn’t capable of controlling his own Nafs, what benefit can he give to the Murīd.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    having certain tendencies is not a sin in itself. that is the job of the nafs. if a normal straight guy says "i do not wish to be alone in a room with a strange lady, due to fear of fitnah" that cannot be counted as publicizing one's sins.

    no one is doubting thanwi's blasphemer status due to his kufriyat. furthermore, no one is contesting his sexual pervert status either. this is a well documented fact of devbandi history.

    but do note that while taqwa and zuhd are necessary qualities for any scholar, wali, mujaddid, and so on, they too are not free of the temptations and attacks of the nafs and shaytan.
  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Per se, Thanwi's statement on young boys is not problematic; but in the light of numerous other evidences of Thanwi's unnatural obsessions (as presented by Ghulam Rasool in this thread) it all adds up to create a full picture of a sexual pervert.
  7. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Young beardless boys, I.e. amrad, have been considered a fitnah for men for most of Islamic history, to the extent scholars debated whether it was always impermissible to look at them, or only if the look is accompanied with desire.

    There are many reports from the Salaf that they would avoid such boys out of fear of fitnah including our Imam al-Aazam who would seat his handsome young student behind him out of fear of fitnah.

    Would it be appropriate if a Najdi or Shia uses this to attack our Imam?

    There is nothing objectionable as to what the murtad thanawi said here, only someone who is ignorant of Islamic history would say this and instead blindly follows Western labels of sexuality.
    abu Hasan likes this.
  8. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    How do you not see a problem with Thanvi’s statement, he admitted to having perverse thoughts regarding young boys. The ruling is to hide one’s sins, not openly discuss them, and yet Thanvi felt no shame in telling his Murīds and students that he had homosexual tendencies.
    Is it possible for such an individual to be a Walī and a Mujaddid, as the Deobandis claim.
  9. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Whilst he is clearly a murtad and there are many strange things mentioned here, I want to ask what exactly is the issue with this? How is protecting oneself from fitnah a bad thing? Very strange to include this here, as it shows his wish to not fall into sin.
  10. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In کمالات اشرفیہ, Pg. 407-408 Thanvi states:

    لوگ تو کیفیات کے پیچھے پڑے ہوۓ ہیں اور لذت کے طالب ہیں۔ ہے تو فحش بات مگر میں تو اس لذت کی طلب پر یہ کہا کرتا ہوں کہ اگر مزے ہی کیخواہش ہے تو میاں مزہ تو مذی میں ہے۔ بیوی کو بغل میں لیکر بیٹھ جاؤ چومو چاٹو۔ مذی نکلے گی بہت مزہ آئیگا۔

    People are after spiritual conditions and seek pleasure (in Zikr). Yes, it is obscene, but in response to this desire for pleasure (in Zikr), I say that if you want pleasure, then the pleasure is in مذی. Take your wife in your arms and kiss her, مذی will come out, you will get plenty of pleasure.

    In ملفوظات حکیم الامت, Volume 17, Pg. 118 Thanvi states:

    فرمایا کہ لوگوں نے لذت کو مقصود سمجھ رکھا ہے یہ شرک صریح ہو رہا ہے طریق میں اگر لذت ہی مقصود ہے تو بیوی کو بغل میں لے کر ذکر کیا کریں واللہ بہتلذت آۓ گی ایک ضرب تو ادھر ہو اور ایک ضرب ادھر۔

    People have taken pleasure (in ‘Ibadat) as their goal. This is clear Shirk which is taking place. In Tariqat, if pleasure is the goal, then take your wife in your arms and perform Zikr. By Allah, much pleasure will be gained, make one Dharb (strike) of Zikr here and one Dharb of Zikr there.

    In بہشتی زیور, Pg. 734 Thanvi states:

    طلاء مقوی اعصاب اور عضو میں درازی و فربہی لانیوالا:۔ چیونٹے بڑے بڑے سات عدد قبرستان میں سے لائیں اور ایک ایک کو مار کر فوراً دو تولہ روغن چمبیلیخالص میں ڈالتے جائیں پھر شیشی میں کر کے کاگ مضبوط لگا کر ایک دن رات بکرے کی منگنیوں میں دفن کریں پھر نکال کر خوب رگڑیں کہ چونٹے تیل میں حلہو جائیں پھر نیم گرم ملیں۔ ترکیب ملنے کی یہ ہے کہ پہلے عضو کو ایک موٹے کپڑے سے خوب ملیں جب سرخی پیدا ہو جاۓ فوراً یہ تیل مل کر چھوڑ دیں پندرہبیس روز ایسا ہی کریں۔

    A method of increasing reproductive power and increasing the length of the male organ: Bring seven ants from the graveyard and kill them one by one and immediately put them in two Tōla pure chambeli oil, then put it in a bottle, put a cork in it and bury it in goat’s droppings for a day and a night, then take it out and grind it well so that the ants are well incorporated into the oil. Then apply it while warm. The method is to first rub the organ well with a thick cloth. When the redness appears, immediately rub this oil on it and leave it. Do the same for fifteen to twenty days.

    It should be noted that بہشتی زیور was written specifically for women and covers women’s Masa’il, and yet contains this ‘remedy’ for men.

    My only reason for posting such obscene words is to show the true character of the Deobandi ‘Akābirīn’, and if any Deobandi sees this thread then perhaps they might begin to understand how misguided they truly are.

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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  11. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In ملفوظات حکیم الامت, Volume 9, Pg.212, Thanvi states:

    میرے یہ ماموں صاحب فرمایا کرتے تھے کہ ہمیں اس کی تو شکایت نہیں کہ ہم کو علماء کافر کہیں۔ انہیں یہ تو ضرور کہنا چاہیے۔ کیونکہ اگر وہ یہ نہ کہیں تو ہم توساری دنیا کو کافر بنادیں…………………ایک واقعہ اِن ہی ماموں صاحب کا اور یاد آیا حیدر آباد سے اول بار کانپور میں تشریف لاۓ تو چونکہ جلے بھنے بہتتھے ان کی باتوں سے لوگ بہت متاثر ہوۓ عبد الرحمن خان صاحب مالک مطبع نظامی بھی ان سے ملنے آۓ اور ان کے حقائق و معارف سن کر بہتمعتقد ہوۓ عرض کیا کہ حضرت وعظ فرمائیے تاکہ سب مسلمان متنفع ہوں۔ ماموں صاحب نے اس کا جواب عجیب از آدانہ رندانہ دیا۔ کہا کہ خان صاحب میںاور وعظ۔ صلاح کار کجاؤ من خراب کجا۔ پھر جب زیادہ اصرار کیا تو کہا ہاں ایک طرح کہہ سکتا ہوں اس کا انتظام کر دیجئے عبد الرحمن خان صاحب بےچارے متین بزرگ تھے سمجھے کہ ایسا ہوگا کہ جس کا انتظام نہ ہو سکے۔ یہ سن کر بہت اشتیاق کے ساتھ پوچھا کہ حضرت وہ طریقہ خاص کیا ہے ماموں صاحببولے کہ میں بالکل ننگا ہو کر بازار میں ہو کر نکلوں اس طرح کہ ایک شخص تو آگے سے میرے عضو تناسل کو پکڑ کر کھینچے اور دوسرا پیچھے سے انگلی کرے ساتھ میںلڑکوں کی فوج ہو اور وہ یہ شور مچاتے جائیں بھڑوا ہے رے بھڑوا بھڑوا ہے رے بھڑوا اور اس وقت حقائق و معارف بیان کروں کیونکہ ایسی حالت میں کوئیگمراہ تو نہ ہوگا سب سمجھیں گے کوئی مسخرہ ہے مہمل باتیں کر رہا ہے

    My uncle used to say that we do not complain that the ‘Ulama call us Kafirs, they must say that, because if they do not say this, then we will make the whole world Kafirs……………. One incident I remember that happened to this uncle is that when he first came to Kanpur from Hyderabad, people were very impressed by his words. Abdur Rahman Khan Sahib Malik Matba’ Nizami also came to meet him and after hearing his wisdom and teachings became very impressed and asked him to preach so that all Muslims would benefit. Uncle Sahib gave a very strange answer to this, he said: Khan Sahib, me and preaching, where is good work and where am I, a sinful person. Then when he insisted more, he said yes, by one method I can preach, make arrangements for it. Abdur Rahman Khan Sahib was an intelligent old man who understood that the method would be something that could not be arranged. On hearing this, he eagerly asked, Hazrat, what is that special method. Uncle Sahib said that I will go out in the bazaar completely naked…………………….and at that time I will state wisdom and knowledge, because in such a situation, no one will go astray, everyone will understand: This man is ridiculous, he is talking nonsense.
  12. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In اشرف السوانح، Volume 2, Pg. 64 it is stated:

    ایک بار عشق کے جوش میں حضرت والا سے بہت جھجھکتے اورشرماتے ہوۓ دبی زبان سے عرض کیا کہ حضرت ایک بہت ہی بیہودہ خیال دل میں بار بار آتاہے جس کو ظاہر کرتے ہوۓ بھی نہایت شرم دامنگیر ہوتی ہے اور جرأت نہیں پڑتی۔ حضرت والا اس وقت نماز کے لیے اپنی سہ دری سے اٹھ کر مسجد کےاندر تشریف لے جارہے تھے فرمایا کہئے کہئے احقر نے غایت شرم سے سر جھکاۓ ہوۓ عرض کیا کہ میرے دل میں بار بار یہ خیال آتا ہے کہ کاش میں عورتہوتا حضور کے نکاح میں۔ اس اظہار محبت پر حضرت والا غایت درجہ مسرور ہوکر بے اختیار ہنسنے لگے اور یہ فرماتے ہوۓ مسجد کے اندر تشریف لے گئے یہآپ کی محبت ہے ثواب ملے گا۔ انشاء اللہ تعالی۔

    Once in the excitement of love, I hesitated and asked Hazrat Wala (Thanvi) in a low voice that a very absurd idea comes to my mind again and again and even when i express it, I am very ashamed and do not dare. At that time, Hazrat Wala was getting up from his room for prayers and was going inside the Masjid. He said, "Say it." I bowed my head in shame and said, "I think again and again that I wish I was a woman and I was married to Hazrat Wala.” Upon this expression of love, Hazrat Wala started laughing uncontrollably and went inside the Masjid saying that this is your love and you will be rewarded. Allah willing.

    In مجالس حکیم الامت, written by مفتی محمد شفیع, Thanvi makes the following admission on Pg. 57:

    میں نے اپنے لوگوں کو ممانعت کر دی تھی کہ تصنیف کے کمرہ میں جہاں میں تنہا ہوتا ہوں کسی نو عمر لڑکے کو نہ بھیجا کریں۔ مجھے اپنے نفس پر اعتماد نہیں۔

    I forbade my people to send any teenage boys to the writing room where I am alone. I don't trust myself.
  13. abu hamzah

    abu hamzah Active Member

    اشرفعلی تھانوی
  14. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    There are countless such examples in Thanvi’s books which show how he lacked any sense of piety and good character. I have more examples, although some of them are quite vulgar and explicit. If the moderators give me permission then I will post them.
  15. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In ملفوظات حکیم الامت، Volume 1, Pg.373 Thanvi states:

    میری ساری عمر مفت خوری میں کٹی ہے پہلے تو باپ کی کمائی کھائی بس بیچ میںبہت تھوڑے دنوں تنخواہ سے گزر ہوا پھر اس کے بعد سے پھر وہی سلسلہ مفتخوری کا جاری ہے یعنی مدت سے نزرانوں پر گزر ہے نہ کچھ کرنا پڑتا ہے نہ کمانا۔ کھانا کھانے دونوں وقت ملتا ہے

    My whole life has been spent in living off of other people’s money. First I ate my father's earnings, later I spent a few days on salary. Since then the same pattern of free eating has been going on, that is I have lived off of people’s offerings. There is no need to do anything or to work, I have food to eat twice a day.

    In خاتمۃ السوانح, written by the Khalifa of Thanvi, Pg.48 it says:

    حضرت اقدس کسی کام سے فارغ ہوتے ہی فوراً تسبیح سمبھالتے تھے اور بعض اوقات مذاہاً فرماتے میں نے اس کا نام جال رکھا ہے کیونکہ لوگ اس سے پھنستےہیں۔

    Hazrat Aqdas (Thanvi) used to grab the Tasbeeh immediately after finishing any work and sometimes he used to say jokingly, I have named it (Tasbeeh) Jaal (net) because people are trapped by it.

    In کمالات اشرفیہ, written by Thanvi’s Khalifa مولوی عیسی الہ آبادی, Thanvi states on Pg. 369:

    دعوت اور ہدیہ میں حلال و حرام کو زیادہ نہین دیکھتا کیونکہ میں متقی نہیں

    I don't pay much attention to whether the da'wat and gifts I receive are halal or haram because I am not pious.

    In ملفوظات حکیم الامت، Volume 2, Pg, 426, Thanwi states:

    مولوی غوث علی شاہ صاحب بڑے حکیم اور ظریف تھے ان کے سامنے کسی کو دعا دی کہ ایمان کی سلامتی اور عاقبت بخیر ہو مولوی صاحب نے پوچھا بھائیاس کی حقیقت بھی معلوم ہے میں نے عرض کیا آپ ہی فرماۓ اس پر فرمایا کہ ایمان کی سلامتی تو ہے کہ پیٹ بھر کر روٹی ملے اور عاقبت بخیر یہ ہے کہ کھلکر پاخانہ ہو جایا کرے بس یہی بڑی نعمت ہے۔

    Molvi Ghaus Ali Shah was a great sage and very intelligent, in his presence I gave a Dua to someone that their Imaan be secure and their Akhirat be good. Molvi Sahib asked, brother, do you know the truth of this (security of Imaan and good Alhirat), I asked him to explain. He replied, the security of Imaan is that one gets enough Roti to fill his stomach, and a good Akhirat is to defecate openly, this alone is a great blessing.
  16. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    In the book اشرف السوانح, written by the Khalifa of Ashraf Ali Thanvi, خواجہ عزیز الحسن مجذوب, an incident from Thanvi’s childhood is mentioned in Volume 1, Pg. 50-51:

    اور ایک واقعہ حفظ کلام مجید کے بعد کا یاد آیا۔ ایک نابینا حافظ تھے جن کو کلام مجید بہت پختہ یاد تھا اور اس کا ان کو ناز بھی تھا۔ ان کو حضرت والا قبل بلوغنوافل میں کلام مجید سنایا کرتے تھے۔ ایک بار رمضان شریف میں دن کو ان سے کلام مجید کا دور کر رہے تھے۔ حضرت والا نے دور کے وقت ان کو متنبہ کردیا کہ حافظ جی میں آج تم کو دھوکا دوں گا اور یہ بھی بتاۓ دیتا ہوں کہ فلاں آیت میں دھوکا دوں گا۔ حافظ جی نے کہا کہ میاں جاؤ تم مجھے کیا دھوکا دے سکتےہو بڑے بڑے حافظ تو مجھے دھوکا دے ہی نہ سکے۔
    حضرت والا جب سنانے کھڑے ہوۓ اور اس آیت پر پہنچے انما انت منذر و لکل قوم ھاد تو بہت ترتیل سے پڑھا جیسا کہ رکوع کرنے کے قریب حضرت والاکا معمول ہے اس کے بعد اس سے آگے جب اللہ یعلم الخ پڑھنے لگے تو لفظ اللہ کو اس طرح بڑھا کر پڑھا کہ جیسے رکوع میں جارہے ہوں اور تکبیر یعنی اللہ اکبرکہنے والے ہوں بس حافظ جی یہ سمجھ کر رکوع میں جارہے ہیں فوراً رکوع میں چلے گئے ادھر حضرت والا نے آگے قرأت شروع کر دی یعلم ما تحمل الخ ابادھر حافظ جی تو رکوع میں پہنچے اور ادھر قرأت شروع ہو گئی فوراً حافظ جی سیدھے ہو کر کھڑے ہوۓ، اس پر حضرت والا کو بے اختیار ہنسی آگئی اور قہقہہ مارکر ہنس پڑے اور ہنسی اے اس قدر مغلوب ہوۓ کہ نماز توڑ کر الگ ہو گئے۔

    And an incident came to mind after memorising the Holy Qur’an. There was a blind Hafiz who had a strong memory of the Holy Qur’an and was proud of it. Hazrate Wala (Thanvi) used to recite Quran to him in Nawafil before puberty. Once during Ramadan Sharif, they were going over Quran when Hazrate Wala warned him that: Hafiz Ji I will deceive you today and I will even tell you that I will deceive you in this Ayat. Hafiz Ji said: Go Mian, what can you do to deceive me, great Huffaz could not deceive me.

    When Hazrate Wala got up to read Nawafil and reached this verse: انما انت منذر و لکل قوم ھاد, he recited it very slowly, as is the custom of Hazrate Wala near the time of rukoo’. After this when he started reciting: اللہ یعلم, he stretched the word اللہ in such a way that it was as if he was going into rukoo’ and he was about to say Takbir, meaning اللہ اکبر, Hafiz Ji thinking this immediately went into rukoo’. On the other hand, Hazrate wala started reading: یعلم ما تحمل. Now here Hafiz Ji reached rukoo’ and here the recitation started. Immeditately, Hafiz Ji stood up straight. Hazrate Wala started laughing and laughed so much that they broke Namaz and left the Musalla.
  17. غلام رسول

    غلام رسول New Member

    Some members have already pointed out the Kufr written in the books of Ashraf Ali Thanvi. I thought I would create a separate thread to talk specifically about his character and behaviour. One of the characteristics of a Mujaddid is their piety and good character. The Deobandis refer to Thanvi as the ‘Mujaddid of this century’, but his own books say otherwise:

    In his book ملفوظات حکیم الامت، volume 4 Pg.260-262, Thanvi mentions some interesting stories. On Pg.261 he says:

    ایک مرتبہ میرٹھ میں میاں الہی بخش صاحب مرحوم کی کوٹھی میں جو مسجد تھی سب نمازیوں کے جوتے جمع کر کے اس کے شامیانہ پر پھینک دیئے نمازیوں میںغل مچا کہ جوتے کیا ہوۓ ایک شخص نے کہا یہ لٹک رہے ہیں مگر کسی نے کچھ نہیں کہا یہ خدا کا فضل تھا۔

    Once in Meerath, there was a Masjid in the house of the late Mian Ilahi Bakhsh Sahib, we gathered all the shoes of the Namazis and threw them on the canopy. There was a commotion amongst the Namazis as to what happened to the shoes, one man said here they are hanging. But no one said anything (to us) this was Allah’s grace.

    He continues on Pg. 261:

    ایک صاحب تھے سیکری کے ہماری سوتیلی والدہ کے بھائی بہت ہی نیک اور سادہ آدمی تھے والد صاحب نے ان کو ٹھیکہ کے کام پر رکھ چھوڑا تھا ایک مرتبہکمریٹ سے گرمی میں بھوکے پیاسے پریشان گھر آۓ اور کھانا نکال کر کھانے میں مشغول ہوۓ گھر کے سامنے بازار ہے میں نے سڑک پر سے ایک کتے کا پلہچھوٹا سا پکڑ کر گھر آ کر ان کی دال کی رکابی میں رکھ دیا بیچارے روٹی چھوڑ کر کھڑے ہوگئے اور کچھ نہیں کہا

    There was a gentleman, our stepmother's brother from Sikri, he was a very pious and simple man. Our father had left him on building work. Once, in the heat of the day, he came home hungry and thirsty, he took out his food and started eating. There is a bazaar in front of the house. I grabbed a small dog’s dropping from the road and came home and put it in his Dal. The poor man stood up and left without saying anything.

    On Pg.262 Thanvi states:

    ایک روز پیشاب کر رہا تھا بھائی صاحب نے آ کر میرے سر پر پیشاب کرنا شروع کر دیا ایک روز ایسا کہ بھائی پیشاب کر رہے ہیں میں نے ان کے سر پر پیشابکرنا شروع کر دیا اتفاق سے اس وقت والد صاحب تشریف لے آۓ فرمایا یہ کیا حرکت ہے میں نے عرض کیا ایک روز انہوں نے میرے سر پر پیشاب کیا تھابھائی نے اس کا بالکل انکار کر دیا مختصر سی پٹائی ہوئی اس لئے کہ میرا دعوی دعوی ہی رہ گیا تھا ثبوت کچھ نہ تھا اور میرے فعل کا مشاہدہ تھا غرض جو کسی کونہ سوجھتی تھی ہم دونوں بھائیوں کو سوجھتی تھی

    One day I was urinating and my brother came and started urinating on my head. One day while my brother was urinating, I started urinating on his head. Coincidentally, our father came home at that time. He said: what is this behaviour. I said: one day he urinated on my head. My brother flatly denied it. I was slightly beaten because my claim was just a claim, the evidence was nothing and my action was observed. In short, the actions that didn’t suit anyone suited us two brothers very well.
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