muslims invented hamams and saunas

eye opener

they want to legalize WHAT?!

 

in my experience - observing people who grew up to be good muslims, respectful, kind, religious, upright - there seems to be a correlation with their parents being good. in other words, if we are good - we can expect that inShaAllah, our children will be good too. certainly, there are good people whose children turn out bad; and vice-versa. wa billahi't tawfiq.

we shouldn't be hypocrites; we should not enjoy tv, music and movies on the one hand and preach to our children that they shouldn't, on the other. people easily tell lies in front of their children, and will be angry if the kids do it. teach children not to lie by being truthful always.

RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam asked a sahabiyah: 'what would you give him?' when she was calling her child promising him to give something. she said: 'this date ya RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam'. the master sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: 'you would be a liar if you didn't'. aw kama qaala `alayhi's salatu wa's salam.

i also agree with nj here:

true.
one should always pray for their children. prayers of parents for their children are like prayers of prophets for their followers. make it a habit to pray after every salat to pray for your teachers, parents; and children.

every time you look at your children with fondness, do dua that they are guided on the right path. imam abdu'l wahab sha'arani says that one of his sons was neglectful and did heed his father's advice to study. the imam says (who is a prolific author) that he was distressed because of this, and he prayed to Allah ta'ala to guide his son. he says, that the same night, his son came home took out books and began to read without anybody asking him to do so. the imam says: 'i realized that it is a blessing from Allah ta'ala; and not our work.'

baap jahaN beTey se bhaage
aa aa kah ke bulatey yeh haiN

the attached dua from surah al-furqan [25:74] is quite profound:

 

a son/daughter even if miscreant or bad is still a son/daughter...
love conquers all. i truly believe that.

 

i don't see how the two issues are related brother noori.
saying that when a son or daughter is an adult you will respect their choice--even if you don't agree with it--doesn't contradict that as a parent you want them to grow up with your own views and values which in our case are muslim values.

 

are you not mixing things up?

your stance is

which mad you say that

how should we bring up our children, as well as dealing with their wrongdoings is a different issue.

i responded to it that one is not permitted to go beyond modesty in clothing and other moral ethics established by shari'ah, and you don't agree to it. how do we deal with such situations is another issue but nevertheless it should always be in accordance with shari'ah.

 

well beating is not the only option, and not totally bad specially in case of a son, but i would certainly try other options for example;

- don't talk to him/her for sometime
- forbid other family not to respond him/her
- if he/she is not independent then do not give him/her pocket money

and if he/she is not dependent on me and admonition and family boycott doesn't work then i may ask him/her not to have any contact with me and other family members, and leave it on Allah.

also, if his/her actions effect rights of others then i will also report to authorities to take action against him/her so that he/she gets punished for his/her wrongdoings, and society is saved.

and I can go even further depending on his/her wrongdoings such as casting doubts on the basics of religion or becoming apostate (May it never happen).

but as per your logic actually you should not even get into their way at all, it is their freedom of choice, who are you to get invloved into their business?

 

let's hope all of our children--if we have any--grow up to be good muslims but the reality is that, like all of us, many of them will fall and stumble. i guarantee that if many of you are as harsh in real life as you appear to be on this forum--and i know on forums people often take on a different persona!--then your child is more likely to rebel. seen and heard it a 100 times. all a parent can do is bring the child up to his or her best ability and teach him right and wrong and pray he gets hidayah from Allah. imagine i have a son or daughter and when he turns 18 he decides to, despite all my teaching, leave home and marry or live with his girlfriend who happens to be a Christian or an atheist [more likely in the UK!]
? i wont like it but neither will i hate him or disown him. after all he is my son. All i can do is pray! i am more inclined that if he was a good son and he realised he was hurting me he would eventually stop of his own accord and feel bad about it. if i was to be harsh he would probably do it more. jawani is like that as they say! youth is blind!
ah! those days of youth....
and i would rather he kept a girlfriend than he lied and cheated or hurt other people or stole or was dishonest. there are plenty of worse things one can do in the world than have a gf!

 

i don't think noori was talking about apostating [naudhubillah]...although it is sadly an increasing phenomena -- not least due to some of our ulama who do not know how to engage with the youth on their level except to cry about fire and brimstone! in a totally alien language [to the youth] and shout and sing and when asked questions their response is to take out the danda and start beating the poor kid! luckily not all maulvis are like that...

--
would any of you disown your own child if he or she committed a big sin--say he was a habitual drunkard or a womanizer or a thief? of course you wouldn't!

 

Ala Hazrat speaks very harshly that apostates relatives must be disowned and not shown any compassion or kinship what so ever.

 

no i was being honest not sarcastic or trying to be funny. but did you honestly fiind anything wrong with my argument which doesn't involve quoting dogma?

 

sidi what can i do apart from tell him verbally and teach him by example that these things are haram in islam? i certainly would not beat him if that is what you mean!
let me ask you--what would you do if it was your son or daughter?

 

feel a little pun but that is okay, i feel those were not intelligent but very plain and simple questions, and you did not add anything new but re-iterating you POV with more verbosity.

is it? or there is something you will try your best not to let him indulge?

 

:s1:
you asked some great questions brother noori. i will try to explain if i can in between your questions using a different coloured font

of course. i would be a hypocrite if i wanted the freedom to choose for myself but didn't give it to my family. i would teach them what is right and wrong according to islam and then let them make up their own find if they want to follow it or not. i would hope that by leading by example they will learn to make the right choices but if, for example, my son when he is older wishes to do something against shariah--say drink or womanise--i will tell him it is wrong but it will be his choice. he also has to answer to Allah and he has his own intellect!

i have come to see the beauty and logic in this approach although for years i have been a very dogmatic and passionate proponent of the exact views you are currently proposing sidi! why do so many people want to come and live in the relatively liberal and free democracies of the West--even rich Arabs?



anyway thanks sidi for some really intelligent questions

 

ma sha Allah, excellent post. No concession, no double-mind, no if's or but's

We should make this topic on the relationship between religion and state in Islam, a sticky one. Because it is the major topic of confusion in this time for common muslims and modernist deviants on the net

 

before you pick this up and make a point, you should know that it is the responsibility of a muslim state to establish the deen of Allāh subĥanu wa tálā in the state itself and invite other neighboring states through dawa'ah and if not then through jihad, but if they submit by giving protection money then still an individual is given the choice to remain non-believer but they would have to follow the islamic laws enforced by the state. so, your point of view is incorrect and is heavily influenced by the western culture.

 

this implies that;

- religion has nothing to do with society and politics, it is just a set of guidelines to maintain personal moral integrity, and only if one opts to

- muslims do not need a state of their own, they can happily live under the rule of jews, chistians, and hindus etc.

- there should be no law at the state level, because everyone is allowed to do whatever he/she thinks is his/her personal choice.

- there should be no punishment on crimes like drinking liqour, or even on irtadaad as it does not concern the civil rights of others.

- not only that muslims should quit/abandon jihad, but also all of our history of glorious victories of our pious elders (take jihad of sahaba kiram for example) were mere aggressions. they should have not gone out for jihad because it was not their business neither of their state.

also, if state has nothing to do with religion then who will enforce shari'ah? do you mean that people should themselves bring it in their lives and it will eventually automatically be implemented in society? is it not idealism, can it really happen?

ya akhi, don't confuse beliefs with social responsibilities, one is free to believe in whatever he/she thinks is correct, God, no God, or many gods, but individuals cannot be given the freedom of doing whatever they think is correct when his/her action also involves, hurts, or provokes other certain individuals.

which is totally incorrect, one is not allowed to be completely naked unnecessarily even in his/her privacy, let alone he/she is in public. your opposition to ban on hijab is worthless if it is what you think. it is not any different than the western freedom of choice which has nothing to do with religion.

pardon me, and don't get angry but would you allow this freedom of choice in your family? don't champion something you may not like for those who are closer to you and deserve to be given more freedom than others who don't concern you directly.

 

The situation in iran is very complex. The situation of iranians in the West is very complex too.

i can give one example. At least 25% of iran is Sunni. you dont see that many of them in the West to make sweeping comments around "shariah ruled states". Anyone can think initially like this, upon meeting the complex iranians who have migrated to the West. Its trivial thinking considering negative views about islam being prevalent in the West

This topic is a separate topic. i can discuss it, if you wish, but only if personal attackers promise they wont attack others personally

 

btw i enjoy our jousts sidi AQ. at least you are willing to engage...

 

btw sidi noori my examples were theoretical. of course one shouldn't mention ones sins in public but nor should one pretend to be a saint when the reality is the complete opposite.