abu ja'afar hanbali (jurjis?)

Discussion in 'Bibliophile's Corner' started by Unbeknown, Jun 24, 2021.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    In FR shareef, there is a question regarding some mountain tribe in India, whether they are Muslims and Alahazrat replies that they are considered murtadd/kuffar.

    I don't remember the exact wording - I tried looking up but got busy with other things.

    If someone remembers, please post.

    JazakAllahu khayran

    P.S. I use the FR app from Rooh al-Madinah IT, and find the search feature pretty solid
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Alf note that even a christian born in christian family, if he became Muslim for a while, and then left Islam, he will be murtad.

    rawafid, qadianis, et al claim Islam and instantaneously deny it in the same breath

    think of an unending recursive loop in programming languages, and these murtads repeatedly keep claiming Islam and uttering kufr. if you've used a computer, and done some elementary programming in the days of BASIC and Pascal and monochrome screens, you could visualize how ugly this error actually looks when the short program is run. in their case their three lines of code/pseudocode would be something like

    10 PRINT "I am Muslim"
    20 PRINT [kufr and blasphemy]
    30 GOTO 10 {which would then take them back to the initial claims of Islam}

    (this is just my understanding, you and i still need to see the Sunni mufti saab)

    for example, i felt like puking when i saw this one rafidi murtad on quora:



    hope that helps!
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    juristically considered - to be more precise (and fwiw, al-azhar, wahabis, devbandis too rule the same)

    i would use the words "unfounded and absolutely bogus claims to Islam" rather than "purported Muslim status". verbose but it spells it out in crystal clear words to the uninformed

    as for the reasoning why the ruling is so, i suggest you sit with a good Sunni mufti saab and satisfy your curiosity.
  4. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    I read it several times to understand what you were saying (Not your fault, just my lack of grasp for some reason). So, what I understand now is, that the born qadiyani, although not a muslim, is considered murtad, but the born Christian is not. Is this difference owing to the qadiyani's purported Islamic/muslim status?
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    no it doesn't. it implies that he is ruled, considered and treated exactly like murtad.

    "person x is a murtad" implies that he was previously a Muslim. (although colloquially a lot of people can just say 'qadianis are murtads' or 'ismailis are murtads'; and there's nothing wrong with such usage; the average person is not a linguist and mufti)

    read my post # 71 properly

    the guy who was born and raised Muslim but later became Hadith rejector or rafidi is a murtad

    the guy born and raised rafidi, qadiani, Ismaili is considered as/under the ruling of murtad

    they're both severe kafirs.

    on ground reality there is no difference between the two.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  6. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    Yes, that's what I mean. The way I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the statement "a heretic whose heresy reaches the level of kufr is considered murtad" implies that he was previously muslim. An example of such a murtad would be a guy who was born into a muslim family but later became a "quranist", i.e a hadith rejector. A person born into a Christian family, when he grows up, would not be called murtad: if that is the case with a Christian guy, how can it be any different for a guy born into a qadiyani family who remains qadiyani?
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    emphasis on the underlined words

    i think @Alf is asking because a murtad by definition is someone who was in a state of Islam formerly and then ma3adh Allah reneged either by denouncing Islam altogether (becoming atheist, christian etc.), or by denouncing a central precept of it (obligation of salah, 3aqidae khatme nubuwwat, etc.), so a guy born to qadiani parents was never "formerly Muslim" to start with

    as far as i know and understand and have heard muftis say, such heretics whose heresy reaches kufr "murtad ke hukm mein aate hain" or "come under the rulings of murtads"

    in english language legal terms, you can consider the term "deem" -


    this is india-specific, we have things called "deemed-to-be universities", and universities. see these wikis



    let us rephrase that in our context, in regards to the heretics whose heresies reach kufr:

    A heretic, other than open apostates, believing in a very lowly creed denying the very basic qualifiers of Islam, is declared by jurists, in light of the noble Shari3ah, as a lowlife 'deemed-to-be-murtad'. Lowlives that are 'deemed-to-be-murtad' receive the Shar3i status and scorn accorded to murtads.

    don't think this makes any lesser of the severity of the kufr of the qadianis. never.

    it's just a matter of legal semantics and definitions that's all.

    think about the definition of "khamr" or "muskir" across the mazahib and different intoxicating products. the end result, rulings, hudood, ta3zir, remain same as far as ground realities are concerned, regardless of the mazhab one follows or the product he has consumed!


    this is on the side of mercy and not to draw equivalence with the accursed qadianis, but just for perspective on something being declared "hukman", think of the shaheed example too. a shaheed by definition is someone who dies on the battlefield. however as per the fazail in many ahadith, there are a lot of people who are under the hukm of shaheed (someone who died defending his home, someone who died by drowning, etc.) and this is Allah's Mercy.

    feel free to correct me if i have erred.

    Allah knows best.
  8. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    any heretic whose heresy reaches the level of kufr is considered a murtad and is treated as one, regardless if they were born into it or not.
  9. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    What is the ruling on a qadiyani boy born to qadiyani parents? Is he considered murtad? I remember one brother once telling me that qadiyanis are murtads. But wouldn't that require them to be muslims in the first place?
  10. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Andhe ko kya chahiye? do aankhen!

    Yes indeed.

    See the link below


    Some fatawa in volume 14 of Fatawa Ridawiyya

    There are plentiful apps serving Fatawa Ridawiyya too:

  12. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

    Thanks. Is there by any chance a statement made directly by Shaykh Ahmad Rida Khan on Qadiyanis?
  13. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

    I didn't mean to start a debate in anyway. Was merely sharing a perspective. I apologize if I was rude and I appreciate the answers.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Some theological questions and definitions too:

    1. Define takleef

    2. Define mukallaf

    3. What is Islam (for a person)? What are the conditions needed to be fulfilled to call a person Muslim?

    4. Define kufr

    5. Define kafir

    6. List the necessary articles of faith to be called Muslim (zaruriyate deen)

    7. List the necessary articles of faith to be called Sunni (zaruriyate Ahle Sunnat)

    Hint: proofs and answers found in Sunni 3aqidah books

    You'll find the answers to your queries in there @UwaysRida
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    simple fiqh quiz for you (and me and all of us):

    1. if a hindu born to both hindu parents in the US, and doesn't know anything about his beliefs, and has never prostrated to an idol - what is the hukm of Shari3ah on him - what is he counted as in terms of beliefs and religious affiliation? what will he be counted as when he reaches adulthood, assuming he hasn't manifestly taken a different religious identity than the one his parents gave him?

    some additional questions:

    2. if a child is born to a hindu mother and christian father - what will the Shari3ah count him as?

    3. if a child is born to a christian mother and hindu father - what will the Shari3ah count him as?

    4. if a child is born to a magian mother and christian/jewish father - what does the Shari3ah count him as?

    5. if a child is born to a christian/jewish mother and magian father - what does the Shari3ah count him as?

    for questions 2-4, we will assume that the parents were married according to the rituals of any of the mentioned religions. for qn 1, we will assume they were married in the rituals of hinduism.

    6. if a male horse crossbreeds with a female donkey (jenny), what is the resultant animal called, and is it fit for slaughter and consumption?

    7. if a male donkey crossbreeds with a mare, what is the resultant animal called, and is it fit for slaughter and consumption?

    rulings from any mazhab of Ahlus Sunnah will do.

    hint: answers and proofs found in fiqh books!
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the issue has been clarified. please learn to read properly. if you are unable to read, it is necessary for you to go to school.
    this forum is not for 8th graders.

    however, still out of courtesy: if you have confusion about something, please state it clearly. you cannot just be vague as "that one and that one".

    what proof do you want? statistical, analytical, theological or anecdotal?
    i strongly recommend that you read a good book on the practical uses of "IF".
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what have YOU done about it?

    it is everybody's own responsibility to learn. perhaps you need to learn basics of islam. wa ma alayna illa'l balagh.
    you may ask what have we done for iblagh. everyone is doing according to the resources available and what is permitted in their circumstances.

    so when does your tenure as the inspector ends? please check the reports given to your predecessor.

    by refuting. publishing material. if you are a sunni who is concerned, you are either a scholar or a commoner. if you are a scholar, you must do it in whatever capacity you can. if you are commoner, you must help scholars in whatever capacity you can.

    you want everything ready-made and instantly; and you want everything to be spoonfed. find out what you can do and keep doing it.

    who started the argument? some fool said something wrong and we refuted him.

    why do you think you are so important that you are now taking account of everybody? if you heed my advice, go to a school and read some basic books on aqidah. throwing names will not impress me.

    PS: are you new here?
  18. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

    We can keep arguing about this, but the real question is, what have you done about it? Have you taught them the correct beliefs? Are you changing the situation? How are we gonna solve this? Or is it always gonna be arguments and acussations?
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  19. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

    Please clarify the issue properly in regards to the people you mentioned.
  20. UwaysRida

    UwaysRida New Member

    Could you support this statement by proofs? I'd really like know.

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