Yeah, that's a good point actually, I think the way you phrases it makes sense. Definitely has to be a non traditional stance otherwise you'd have people outside the deobandi/wahabi crew that hold that same opinion
Yes indeed it is. But i was specifically focusing on the word "traditional" as a specifier. The "traditional" sunni practices Meelad and does not reject it. If anything, and there is room for fiqh disagreement, wouldnt that make it the "nontraditional" Sunni perspective? Just asking...
Because the permissibility of milad is a tertiary issue since its a matter of fiqh and not aqeedah. The deobandis have essentially fooled the rest of the world that they are hanafi maturidi- I can't blame someone who doesn't have the sub continent background for being fooled. Which non subcontinent shuyukh consider the deobandis deviants? Not that I'm defending AHM- he is obviously a deviant himself at best. It's just in this deobandis issue, they've all been hoodwinked
And even if this truly is the case, even then, how can deobandis be considered "traditional sunnis" when they reject the Milad??
Yeah, not surprising. However, Senior Deobandis themselves admit the truth about real reasons for the dispute...considering how much "research" he does, im surprised he hasnt come across Manzoor Sambhali's quote below (or a variation thereof)...
To be fair, he's basically under the impression that the dispute between the two groups is about things like milad etc as he's mentioned there. He's essentially as un-versed in the issues as any non desi is including the Arab ulema. That's not an issue specific to him. I mean, how many modern day non desi scholars actually understand the deobandi issue despite often having barelwi students? In any case, the actual issue with Murad is the perennialism stuff, not whether he thinks deobandis are sunni even if they don't practice milad, etc.
Oh yeah the all famous deobandi mantra. It is intrinsically possible for Allah to lie according to them, but not intrinsically possible for Keller to be a bleeding moron. It is possible for kafirs to attain prophetic intercession (which actually makes the whole institution of prophethood and religion itself redundant) according to Timmy winters' misquoting books but it ain't possible for winters to be a pathological liar. It is possible for mark Hanson to defend and promote Dante (just wonder when he'll start promoting hayavan Rushdie) but he gets into a fit and froths at the mouth when someone promotes a defense of Islam by standing up against someone who promotes a zaneem shatim. Their manhaj screams out loud - our akabir, puppetmasters, and paymasters define deen just as the rabbis and priests do it for our Christian and Jew brethren, unlike Islam where men are defined by deen.
Abdal Hakim Murad said, "It is possible for kuffar to attain salvation in the hereafter", and we criticised; so his admirers said, "He only said it's possible", so we say... It is possible that AHM is a satanist It is possible that AHM will go to hell It is possible that AHM is lying It is possible that AHM is making false claims It is possible that AHM is a covert operator who is trying to subvert the deen It is possible that AHM is a heretic It is possible that AHM is on the pay of Agha Khan It is possible that AHM is not a muslim really --- I am not saying it, I am just saying it is possible...
oh i know what timothy said. i'm just after a formal refutation by a Muslim shaykh against this enemy of Allah.
Sorry, no. I'll try to get hold of it. It's a "Legitimate interpretation" that kuffar can be saved. Listen at 4 mins onwards.
The Holy Prophet , the Intercessor of the Sinners, said, “My intercession on the day of judgement is a reality – so whoever does not believe in it will not deserve it.” (Ibn Manie, from 14 Sahabah)
can the specific communique be scanned or posted online, or the source site linked please. tim winters must be informed and told to do tawbah publicly.
Dr Abdul Hakim Murad claimed in more than one place that many non believers, Jews, Christians and people of other faiths will attain salvation through the intercession of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace). This position of Dr Murad contravenes clear verses of the Quran, explicit Hadith and consensus. To support his position he cited Imam Zabidi. The Ulama of Zabid refute this claim and tell anyone making this claim to retract the error in the following: Question: What do you say, O Ulama of Islam, concerning the one who claims that Al-Sayyid al-Imam al-Murtada Al-Zabidi al-Hanafi (may Allah cover him with Mercy) believed that “it is possible that the Prophet’s intercession will include non-Muslims in Hell, just as it helped them at the Judgement.” [Between Heaven and Hell, Islam Salvation and the Fate of Others, pg 139] and that this statement is present in the Sayyid’s commentary upon ‘Ihya Ulum al-Din’ known as ‘Ithaf al-Sadah al-Muttaqin’? Please explain. May Allah reward you. Answer: In the name of Allah al-Rahman al-Rahim All praise is due to Allah and support is sought from Him The reply, when the matter is as the questioner has described, is that this is a claim that has no proof nor is it supported by any evidence and it is a false assertion. The one who has made this claim is incapable of establishing any proof for it. There is no proof for this claimant, in the book ‘Ithaf as-Sadat al-Muttaqin ‘ala Ihya’ Ulum al-Din’, neither in wording nor in meaning and no intellect would accept the false assertion of this claimant upon al-Sayyid al-Imam al-Muhaddith, the pillar of reliance amongst the illustrious exacting research scholars, al-Murtada Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Husayni al-Zabidi (may Allah have Mercy on him). All that this claimant has alleged is incorrect and it has not remained hidden upon the Sayyid the Imam the statement of the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) at the end of the lengthy hadith: “I have been given Intercession and I have stored it for my Ummah so it is for the one who did not associate anything with Allah.” [Musnad Imam Ahmad] also the statement of the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam): “There is an answered supplication for every Prophet, so every Prophet hastened his supplication and I have stored my supplication as intercession for my ummah on the Day of Judgement, so it will encompass, by the Will of Allah, whosoever passed away from my Ummah not associating anything in partnership with Allah [Sahih Muslim and others] also the statement of the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam): “My intercession is for the people of Major Sins from amongst my Ummah.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhi and others] also the statement of the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam): “My intercession is for the people of sins from my ummah…” (to the end of the hadith). [al-Jami’ al-Saghir] The people of sins and major sins are believers and not disbelievers. They carry sins but these sins do not take them outside the fold of Iman so the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) will intercede for them. It is not possible that al-Sayyid al-Murtada ignore these ahadith and misconstrue the meaning of the specific intercession (al-Shafa’ah al-Khassah), that the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) mentioned, and extend it to the disbelievers in the Fire! Neither is it possible that he draw a parallel with the Greatest Intercession (Al-Shafa’ah al-Uzhma), which is for the relieving of creation from the terrors of the Gathering on the Plain of Resurrection (Mahshar) whilst amongst them will be the disbelievers. Nor is it possible that he believe the disbelievers in the hell-fire will benefit from the Specific Intercession (Al-Shafa’ah al-Khassah) the way they will benefit by the Greatest Intercession. Behold! Here are the books of the Imam before us morning and evening and there is no semblance of what the claimant has claimed in ‘Ithaf al-Sadat al-Muttaqin’ neither in wording nor meaning, neither explicit nor implicit! So from where did he judge the beliefs of al-Imam al-Murtada with that which he has uttered? While belief is a hidden affair, which is not possible to know or reach except through its expression on the tongue, or its clear expression in writing. This claim of the claimant is something this mentioned book is absolutely devoid of, so it is far-fetched that it should be found, rather it is something impossible. Perhaps this claim arose from a feeble comprehension and shortcomings in scrutinising and verifying? Thus it is incumbent upon this individual that he look again with a lofty concern and seek forgiveness from Allah the Most High for that which has issued from him in dishonour with respect to the right of the Imam the Muhaddith and that he rectify what he has stated and claimed. So if he stated it in a book that he wrote or an article that he penned or mentioned it in a lecture that he delivered then it is upon him to correct his thinking concerning that which he has implanted in his mind and study closely the details of the Intercessions on page 494 volume 10 of ‘Ithaf al-Sadat’. Perhaps it is there that he has not understood the statement of al-Imam al-Zabidi (may Allah cover him in Mercy) when he states: “al-Qadi ‘Ayyad has mentioned a Sixth Intercession and it is the Intercession of the Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) for his uncle Abu Talib in lessening his punishment as mentioned in Sahih Muslim ‘I found him in the depths of the fire so I took him out to the shallowest part of the fire.’” This is even though his uncle was a disbeliever. However his uncle will remain in the fire and he does not benefit from this intercession the way the disbelievers benefit from the Greatest Intercession and they will not attain salvation from the fire so where is this from that. So with regards to the Specific Intercession the reason for it is an ennoblement of the believers despite what they carry from major sins. Whereas Abu Talib is not from those ennobled and rather the intercession in his case is recompense for that which was presented of service (to the Messenger of Allah (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam) like when Allah (Gory be to Him the Most Sublime) informed Sayyiduna Musa (alayhis salam): “Then speak to him gentle words: perchance he may be mindful or he may have some fear.” [Surah Ta Ha Verse 44] This is because Sayyiduna Musa (alayhis salam) was brought up as a child in the household of Fir’awn so he had received a service that Fir’awn had rendered. Or perhaps the claim of the claimant arose from not understanding the statement of al-Imam al-Murtada (rahmatAllah alayh), starting seven lines from the bottom of that same page: “So if you say which intercession is it that the Prophet salAllahu alayhi wa sallam has stored for his ummah?” And he replied to this question with an answer saying: “It is possible…” So he mentioned four possibilities in detail. As for the first and second then it is apparent that within the book they are easy to understand. However, in the third possible explanation he says: “It is possible that the intended meaning is absolute intercession that is common in all five types of intercession. The fact that this ummah shares with them (the ummahs of the other Prophets (alayhimus salam)) inside those or in some of those does not negate the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) having stored his intercession for his ummah, perhaps he will not intercede for other than them from the nations rather their Prophets (alayhimus salam) will intercede for them.” In the fourth possible interpretation he says: “It is possible that the intercession is also for other than them, secondary to them…” However these that are secondary and share with them in the intercession are the other ummas in secondary following. All of these possibilities are restricted to and specific with regards intercession for the believers whether they are from the Ummah of the Prophet salAllahu alayhi wa sallam first and foremost, or from the preceding nations secondary to them because they are from the believers who believed in their Prophets (alayhim as-salam) and died upon Iman. The Specific Intercession then is specific to the believers. All these mentioned possibilities do not give the meaning that the Specific Intercession will include the disbelievers the people of the fire the way that the Greatest Intercession includes them or that they will benefit by it while they are disbelievers the way that the believers will benefit by the Specific Intercession. No rational person will hold this view. How can the Specific Intercession include them when it is confined to the people of Iman, despite them carrying major sins? Nor can the rational person draw a parallel between the Greatest intercession and the Specific intercession and say the disbelievers in the fire will benefit from it. It is impossible to reach this understanding from the book ‘Ithaf al-Sadah al-Muttaqin’ or to conclude that this is the belief of al Imam al Murtada. So it is upon this person that he seeks forgiveness from Allah and to reflect in a manner appropriate to the personalities of the Ulama and leave speculation. Allah the Most High says: “And go not after that thing of which you know not. No doubt the ear and the eye and the heart all are to be questioned of.” (Surah Banu Isra’il Verse 36) May Allah send his peace and blessings on Our Liege-Lord Muhammad and upon his Family and Companions. The poor slave of Allah the Most High (Mufti of the Hanafis) Qasim Salih Muhammad Kuzaym al-Zabidi May Allah pardon them all The Protected Sanctuary of Zabid, Yemen.
