Brother abu hasan - is saaq attribute of Allah?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu nibras, Feb 15, 2006.

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  1. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    locked !
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    standard salafi muddling.

    the quote of imam abu hanifah in blue nowhere ascribes this as a sifah and it is wilful deception of the yahud of this ummah who call themselves as salafis khadhalahumullah wa kayduhum.

    translation of the blue item:

    قال الإمام الأعظم أبو حنيفة النعمان فيما نسب إليه: "يعلم لا كعلمنا، ويقدر لا كقدرتنا، ويرى لا كرؤيتنا" (1) وهذا معنى قوله تعالى: {لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ} فنفي المثل وأثبت الصفة

    said imam al a`azam abu Hanifah an-nu`man in what has been attributed to him: "[Allah] knows but His knowledge is unlike us; has Power but unlike our abilities; he Sees but not like the way we see; this is the meaning of the verse: 'nothing is like unto Him; and he is the Hearer, the Seer'', and he thus negates the similitude and attests the attribute.

    [supposing that the last line is the author's comment - whoever the author is]

    but nowhere did he demonstrate that imam al-azam said that 'the shin' was an attribute.

    but the shameless author in the same breath mentions the ta'awil of the sahabah and says that they went astray by not attesting this as a sifah dhatiyyah. wa laa Hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah. moreover, the heading declares sahabah like ibn abbas to be fussaq because they did ta'wil of the saaq?

    not to mention the likes of nawawi and ibn Hajar al-`asqalani for they did not attest it as saaq.

    the only 'salaf' - though i don't deem him to be that for all i care - ibn al qayyim quoted in that thoroughly dishonest post is also misrepresented.

    here is the translation and the author's conclusion - you be the judge:
    ibn qayyim said: 'the companions have differed in the tafsir of this verse; does it mean 'relief from adversity' or whether our Lord Most High shall reveal His shin. nothing has been preserved about this difference among the companions or their followers which may be mentioned whether it is an attribute or not at this juncture. neither is anything mentioned explicitly in the qur'an that proves that it is an attribute because Allah ta'ala [in the verse] did not attribute the 'shin' towards His Own Self; rather, He mentioned it without any qualification and as a disjoint word.

    those who attest that it is an attribute like 'the two hands' or 'the fingers' did not prove it from the qur'anic verse. rather they prove it from the hadith of abu sa`id al-khudri which is accepted as Sahih (by both muslim and bukhari) - and this is a lengthy hadith of intercession. and in it is mentioned: 'and the Lord shall reveal His shin; and they shall fall down in prostration'

    and those who deduce the verse to be likewise say that the verse 'and when the Shin shall be revealed and they shall be called to fall down in prostration' is consistent with the prophet's saying sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam. 'and when he shall reveal his shin and they shall fall down in prostration.' and his reminding this denotes respect and esteem.

    just as he has said: 'when the great shin shall be revealed; when its greatness shall be apparent' Exalted is Allah that anything should bear a likeness unto him or a similitude.

    and some have said: the verse is explained to be the severity of the situation. this is not correct in one way. the arabic tongue has an example: 'the severity has been lifted from the community' and not that it is itself lifted. as Allah ta'ala has said: 'and when we lifted from them a torment, they reneged' and 'and we had mercy on them and lifted from them which was their the bane'. thus the torment and bane are lifted not that it is lifted on its account.

    also, severity shall not be lifted until they go into paradise and they shall not prostrate therein. rather they shall be invited towards that which is more severe than severity [whatever it means]

    قال ابن القيم (6): "الصحابة متنازعون في تفسير الآية؛ هل المراد الكشف عن الشِّدَّة، أو المراد بها أنَّ الرب تعالى يكشف عن ساقه؟ ولا يحفظ عن الصحابة والتابعين نزاع فيما يذكر أنه من الصفات أم لا في غير هذا الموضع، وليس في ظاهر القرآن ما يدل على أنَّ ذلك صفة الله؛ لأنه سبحانه لم يضف الساق إليه، وإنما ذكره مجرداً عن الإضافة منكراً، والذين أثبتوا ذلك صفة كاليدين والإصبع لم يأخذوا ذلك من ظاهر القرآن، وإنما أثبتوه بحديث أبي سعيد الخدري المتفق على صحته، وهو حديث الشفاعة الطويل، وفيه: "فيكشف الرب عن ساقه، فيخرون له سُجَّداً"، ومن حمل الآية على ذلك؛ قال: قولـه تعالى: {يَوْمَ يُكْشَفُ عَنْ سَاقٍ وَيُدْعَوْنَ إِلَى السُّجُودِ} مطابق لقولـه - صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم -: "فيكشف عن ساقه، فيخرون له سجداً" وتنكيره للتعظيم والتفخيم، كأنه قال: يكشف عن ساق عظيمة؛ جلت عظمتها، وتعالى شأنها أن يكون لها نظير أو مثيل أو شبيه. قالوا: وحمل الآية على الشِّدَّة لا يصح بوجه، فإن لغة القوم في مثل ذلك أن يقال: كُشِفَتِ الشِّدَّة عن القوم، لا كُشِف عنها، كما قال الله تعالى: {فَلَمَّا كشَفْنَا عَنْهُمُ الْعَذَابَ إِذَا هُمْ يَنكُثُونَ}، وقال: {وَلَوْ رَحِمْنَاهُمْ وَكَشَفْنَا مَا بِهِمْ مِنْ ضُرٍّ}؛ فالعذاب و الشِّدَّة هو المكشوف لا المكشوف عنه، وأيضاً فهناك تحدث الشِّدَّة وتشتد ولا تزال إلا بدخول الجنة، وهناك لا يدعون إلى السجود، وإنما يدعون إليه أشد ما كانت الشِّدَّة"

    ibn qayyim is himself guilty here of being injudicious; he just says what suits him [provided that this is the only part of the quote; else the dishonesty lies on the author's part]. he slept over the poetic principle mentioned by no less than imam bayhaqi as quoted above. and he also hastily generalizes that since nothing is reported from the sahaba or companions, there must have been a difference of opinion. and also as is the habit of those with weak proofs - says casually, 'many say' or 'those who attest attributes of hands, fingers'. as if a whole majority was divided. that is known as fallacy of generalization.

    but leave ibn qayyim's eagerness in compounding his master's errors - even he did not say what his inane followers of this age claim.

    now note the dishonesty of the author, who hastily summarizes an already hasty conclusion:

    this [the above ibn qayyim quote] proves that 'the shin' is an attribute of Allah ta'ala. and proved from the hadith of abu sai`d al-khudri radiyallahu `anhu. this hadith is accepted to be sahih by both muslim and bukhari. [i am translating muttafiq `ala sihhatih to its prevalent meaning else it may translate as 'absolute']. and this is from the hadith of intercession [*] and the reason why 'the shin' is mentioned in the qur'an without a qualifier [tankir] is to emphasize the greatness and esteem. and by the affirmation by the sahih hadith we see that this is a 'verse of attribute' which has been explained by the hadith. because the verse has already an implied meaning inspite of being without a specific qualifier; yet, the hadith demonstrates that the meaning of the shin is it is the shin of Rahman. this is the way of the scholars [ahl al-ilm] both past and present. it is an article of faith when described or explained by the hadith even if it is just mentioned in the qur'an.

    فبهذا تثبت صفة الساق لله تعالى، من حديث أبي سعيد الخدري – رضي الله عنه – المتفق على صحته، وهو من أحاديث الشفاعة، وتنكير الساق إنما للتعظيم والتفخيم، فانطلاقاً من هذا الحديث الصحيح نرى الآية من آيات الصفات المفسرة بالسنة؛ لأن الآية جاءت محتملة المعنى حيث جاء الساق مجرداً عن الإضافة المخصصة فجاءت السنة مبينة بأن المراد بالساق هو ساق الرحمن. وهذه طريقة أهل العلم قديماً وحديثاً، في الإيمان ما جاءت به السنة مفسرة أو مفصلة لما أجمل في القرآن.

    it must be obvious to any reader unless wilfully blind that 'qadiman and hadithan' the scholars of past and present include one ibn al-qayyim who has been soundly refuted by imam subki in his 'sayf as-saqil fi'r raddi `ala ibn zafil' and a quarter pipsqueaks running deplorable forums.

    the rest of the salafi posts are verbal diarrohea and it is pointless to comment upon that. time and again we have proved the dishonesty of those in the forum. abu nibras may well do to lock this post and move it to somewhere else.

    so we can see why refutation and controversies are best ignored.
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  3. ibn_abdullah

    ibn_abdullah Guest

  4. Abdullah

    Abdullah Guest

    thank you abu hasan, so basically it was not a attribute but it His day for Resurrection even in those hadeeths brought by salaafis?
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam ibn hajar al-`asqalani in fat'H al-bari explaining the very hadith quoted above says:

    i translate the relevant part below [ad-hoc hurried translation]

    regarding the shin: it is reported from ibn abbas that he explained the saying of Allah 'when the shin shall be unraveled' - it is from the intense conditions of the hour. it is a saying among arabs: 'the battle has risen to its shin' when the battle intensifies. a similar couplet says: 'your folk are knocking off necks/and the battle has risen by its shins.'

    abu musa al-ash`ari is reported to have explained this verse as 'a great light [shall be revealed]'

    ibn furak says: 'when great favors and benefits shall be hastened towards a believer'

    muhallab says: 'the revealing of the shin is a mercy to the believer and terror to the disbeliever'

    many scholars have been wary of [and warned against] delving into the meaning of 'the shin'

    and the meaning of ibn abbas' saying is that 'Allah shall unveil His Power through which shall be known by the unfolding of the intense distress [that day]

    bayhaqi adduced the report from ibn abbas mentioned earlier from two chains both of which are hasan and he added: 'if you find difficulty in understanding anything from the qur'an [the lexical meaning?] then [cross-check] it from the arabic poetry and he mentioned the couplet from the rajz meter that indicates the meaning.

    al-khattabi inferred that 'the shin' referred to 'a most serious matter' and said [from a couplet] : 'in that year, when its shin was revealed' [meaning the year of intense distress]

    bayhaqi adduced by another narration from ibn `abbas which is sahih, wherein he said: 'it is meant to be the day of resurrection'

    قَالَ : وَأَمَّا السَّاق فَجَاءَ عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس فِي قَوْله تَعَالَى ( يَوْم يُكْشَف عَنْ سَاق ) قَالَ عَنْ شِدَّة مِنْ الْأَمْر , وَالْعَرَب تَقُول : قَامَتْ الْحَرْب عَلَى سَاق إِذَا اِشْتَدَّتْ , وَمِنْهُ : ‏ ‏قَدْ سَنَّ أَصْحَابك ضَرْب الْأَعْنَاق ‏ ‏وَقَامَتْ الْحَرْب بِنَا عَلَى سَاق ‏ ‏وَجَاءَ عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى الْأَشْعَرِيّ فِي تَفْسِيرهَا عَنْ نُور عَظِيم قَالَ اِبْن فَوْرَكٍ : مَعْنَاهُ مَا يَتَجَدَّد لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ الْفَوَائِد وَالْأَلْطَاف . وَقَالَ الْمُهَلَّب : كَشْف السَّاق لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحْمَة وَلِغَيْرِهِمْ نِقْمَة . وَقَالَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ : تَهَيَّبَ كَثِير مِنْ الشُّيُوخ الْخَوْض فِي مَعْنَى السَّاق , وَمَعْنَى قَوْل اِبْن عَبَّاس إِنَّ اللَّه يَكْشِف عَنْ قُدْرَته الَّتِي تَظْهَر بِهَا الشِّدَّة . وَأَسْنَدَ الْبَيْهَقِيُّ الْأَثَر الْمَذْكُور عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس بِسَنَدَيْنِ كُلّ مِنْهُمَا حَسَن , وَزَادَ : إِذَا خَفِيَ عَلَيْكُمْ شَيْء مِنْ الْقُرْآن فَأَتْبِعُوهُ مِنْ الشِّعْر وَذَكَرَ الرَّجَز الْمُشَار إِلَيْهِ , وَأَنْشَدَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ فِي إِطْلَاق السَّاق عَلَى الْأَمْر الشَّدِيد " فِي سَنَة قَدْ كَشَفَتْ عَنْ سَاقهَا " وَأَسْنَدَ الْبَيْهَقِيُّ مِنْ وَجْه آخَر صَحِيح عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس قَالَ : يُرِيد يَوْم الْقِيَامَة ,
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  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam nawawi in his sharh of muslim in the hadith 5233:

    and his saying: [thus on the day when the shin shall be revealed]
    scholars have said: the meaning [of shin] here and that which is mentioned in the qur'an is that the day when the day shall unravel, the day of intense distress and great terror; that is when it shall become apparent.

    as it is said [among arabs]: 'the battle has been unraveled by its shin' when the battle is intense. the origin of this saying is that when someone is intensely involved [in something] one [lifts his garment] upto his shin, to help him move easier and faster.

    ‏قَوْله : ( فَذَلِكَ يَوْم يُكْشَف عَنْ سَاق ) ‏
    ‏قَالَ الْعُلَمَاء : مَعْنَاهُ وَمَعْنَى مَا فِي الْقُرْآن { يَوْم يُكْشَف عَنْ سَاق } يَوْم يُكْشَف عَنْ شِدَّة وَهَوْل عَظِيم أَيْ يُظْهِر ذَلِكَ . يُقَال : كَشَفَتْ الْحَرْب عَنْ سَاقهَا إِذَا اِشْتَدَّتْ , وَأَصْله أَنَّ مَنْ جَدَّ فِي أَمْره كَشَفَ عَنْ سَاقه مُسْتَمِرًّا فِي الْخِفَّة وَالنَّشَاط لَهُ .
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  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the hadith says 'his shin' or 'saaqihi'.

    even a beginner like me would not find it difficult to understand the possessive pronoun. so first let us know what the 'saaq' is; if it is described as 'the intense hour', the hadith translates to: his intense hour. or the intense hour set by the Lord.

    this is how it is described by the masters as mentioned in tafsir ibn kathir. i shall try to find other references later and i will post it when i find time, inshaAllah.

    if one does literal translations, it is nothing less than mayhem. consider the famous hadith from bukhari 'ataytuhu harwalah' translates to 'i come running towards him'. so the wahabi says that god is he who comes running to him and if you deny you are denying his attribute?

    ta`alaAllahu `uluwwan kabeera.

    but that is not the point. let us first hear from those who broach the subject: where did any of the salaf explicitly say that 'the Shin' is an attribute of the Lord? is it a part of faith to believe that it is an attribute? please reply with references.

    by the way, uthaymin, binbaz and albani don't count as salaf.
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  8. Abdullah

    Abdullah Guest

    Thanks akhee... problem is that they say that the ayah said THE shin so some from salaf did the ta'wil but the hadeeths clearly say HIS shin so it means it is an attribute belonging to Allah and if you use the ta'wil for these hadeeth then you are denying the attribute like jahmees.

    could u comment on this point plz.
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is indeed mentioned in an ayah : 'yawma yukshafu `an saaqin' / that day when the shin is uncovered. [surah al-qaf v.42]

    according to ibn kathir, the report mentioned above is found in both bukhari and muslim. but he also includes many reports where 'saaq' or 'shin' is inferred to be the 'calamity' or 'a great happening'

    the report says: 'yakshifu rabbuna `an saaqihi' / [the day] our Lord shall reveal from His shin. in ibn kathir's tafsir, he does not even hint that it is an attribute. however, he reports major scholars in this matter on how they explain 'the Shin'

    abdullah ibn mubarak in his chain from ibn abbas: 'it is the day of resurrection; a day of intense distress, anxiety and agony. [huwa yawmu'l qiyamah; yawmu karbin wa shiddah]

    from ibn mas`ud or ibn `abbas: 'it is a great happening as a couplet runs: the battle is carried by the shin' [yawma yukshafu `an saqin qaal: amrun `adhim ka qawli'sh sha`yir: shaalati'l Harbu `an saaqin]

    from mujahid: 'a very serious and distressing happening' [shiddatu'l amr]

    from ibn `abbas: 'it is the most [painful] serious moment on the day of resurrection. [hiya ashaddu sa`ah takunu fi yawmi'l qiyamah]

    from `ali ibn abi Talib reported by ibn `abbas: 'it is a most serious happening, intense and terrible, most shocking' [huwa'l amru'sh shadid al-faDHiy mina'l hawli yawma'l qiyamah]

    another report from RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam explains this ayah as: 'the day when the shin shall be uncovered, that is a great light will be revealed and they shall fall down in prostration' [yawma yukshafu `an saqin ya`ani `an nurin `aDHim yakhirruna lahu sujjada]

    even in the case of the ayah where it is mentioned: 'wajh' or 'the Face' and debated whether it is an attribute, it is said in bada'a al-amali:

    wa ma't tashbeehu li'r Rahmani waj'han
    fa Sun `an dhaaka aSnafi'l ahaali

    do not liken Rahman to anyone or anything when you mention 'the Face'
    and thus safeguard yourself, by professing the belief of the worthy.

    [ahaali, pl. of ahl; and mawlana `ali qari in his Daw al ma'ali says: 'ahaali' or the 'worthy' meaning the ahlu's sunnah wa'l jama'ah]

    wAllahu a`alam wa `ilmuhu atam wa aHkam.
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  10. Abdullah

    Abdullah Guest


    could you please explain this which was brought to attack Maulana Hishaam Kabbani:

    Shaykh Saleem al-Hilaalee, in addition to mentioning the hadeeth of Aboo Sa'eed al-Khudree from al-Bukhaaree in which he attributes the Saaq (Shin) to Allaah: "It will be said to them: 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognise Him?' They will say: 'The Shin.' So Allaah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every Believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation (in this world)," also brings two reports from Aboo Hurairah (p.64) to the same effect: i. Recorded by ibn Mandah in ar-Radd 'ala al-Jaymiyyah (p.40) and al-Eemaan (811, 812), and ibn Jareer at-Tabaree in his Tafseer (29/26) with their chain of transmission. Shaykh al-Hilaalee says: "Its chain of transmission is saheeh, its narrators thiqah." ii. Recorded by ad-Daarimee in his Sunan (2/326) with his chain of transmission. Shaykh al-Hilaalee says: "Its chain is hasan, its narators are thiqah except for ibn Ishaaq for he is truthful and commits tadlees. However, he has clearly stated having heard the hadeeth, therefore it is hasan."

    are these hadeeths correct and if correct does it make saaq to be attribute of Allah because it says His shin and not the shin?
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