Coronavirus and jumu'ah

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by AbdalQadir, Sep 26, 2020.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    apologies brother i do not want to sound condescending, but this is a major shortcoming affecting our community as a whole and particularly sunnis. we are content with summary judgements and are unwilling to think nor adapt to our times. nor are we interested in examining the hadith that are cited as proof.

    as for rational inquiry and reasoning - most have either abandoned it altogether or do not give it sufficient importance. what else explains poor reasoning that is rife in intellectual discourse?

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    "level of iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die"

    sounds very noble and pious. but remember that ulama who were far more pious and righteous than we can hope to be and had better understanding of the shariah listed out cases that merit exemption from jama'ah. let's take bahar e shariat, for example:

    bes v1p584.png




    extreme cold, storm, torrential rain, mud, slush or sleet etc.

    ALSO:

    - fear that one's food or property could be damaged, stolen, hurt etc.

    - a poor man in debt who cannot repay his debt and fears that the lender will accost him

    - fear of a tyrant (or in general someone who can hurt him - say a mafioso or a local goon)

    - fear that the caravan will leave (in our times, that one may miss their flight or train)

    of course, this is for the individuals and does not mean shut down mosques. i understand that. my point is that in the present circumstance it is not wise to go to gatherings. as for shutting down mosques completely that is a different issue/argument. perhaps we could have a functional jama'at of few people who take precautions and maintain the jama'at while the rest pray at homes.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imho shaykh asrar's bravado was uncalled for and very unwise. particularly for a scholar and an otherwise sensible person like him. one does not have to justify or satisfy every challenge. personally, i do not like getting into such arguments/derring-do.

    just because the woman said "drink poison and eat a date", shaykh asrar just got up and drank it. for what? in fact, his argument that "x thing in the bible says 1,2,3" then do believe in it LITERALLY is a non-starter. the same can be demanded of us - and we point to many things that are figurative. regardless, it was a weak argument.

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    one should always be mindful of the Power and Plan of Allah. people may say that it is about faith. but are you sure that it is the correct interpretation? that is what the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam intended?

    take this 'hadith' oft-quoted by people:
    at best it is a rewording and understood by implication.

    imam sakhawi says in al-maqasid al-hasanah:

    maqasid, 534.png


    summary: "reeq al-mu'min shifa" or "su'ur al-mum'n shifa" can be understood in the light of the authentic hadith in sahihayn: "bismillahi turbatu arDina bi riqati ba'Dina yushfa saqimuna bi idhni rabbina" / in the name of Allah, the dust of our earth and the saliva of one amongst us, the sick among us will be cured by the permission of Allah.

    hadith #5745 of bukhari. imam ibn hajar mentions that imam nawawi said that 'turbatu arDina' means the dust of madinah. and the saliva of one amongst us means "the saliva of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam" which is special unlike any of us. though ibn hajar reserved his judgement on this opinion.

    the point is: it is NOT absolute. and the claim that 'saliva of mu'min is cure' is at best a weak narration and cited in faDa'il. you cannot discard sensible advice based on 'faith' upon this statement.

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    in other words:
    ---
     
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  3. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    I think they should consider the fiqh not act on a single Hadith without considering all the evidence
     
  4. faqir

    faqir Veteran

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    disclaimer: i apologise to brothers if my post sounds like a refutation or the like. am just presenting counter arguments.
    ================================================================


    the one day lockdown modi has announced for tomorrow, 22nd is widely believed to be a dry run for an impending two-month lockdown. these beasts have no humanity and don't care if people die - they actually take satisfaction in killing people.

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    anecdotal evidence or an exception is not enough to build a theory nor prove your point.

    imam muslim is supposed to have died because of eating a big bowl of dates while researching a hadith - perhaps he had diabetes and dates aggravated his condition. will that lead us to a generalisation: "eating dates will kill you"?

    ---
    you are arguing for and against.

    every muslim should have firm faith in the qur'anic injunction:

    s9v51.png

    nothing will befall us except that which Allah ta'ala has ordained for us. yet at the same time, we must not present ourselves to danger claiming trust (tawakkul) (baqarah, 2:195):


    s2v195a.png
    do not put your lives in danger by your own doing.

    alahazrat explains: [FR v24/p308]

    FR v24p308.png


    "important note: just as it is impermissible to flee from a plague-hit town/city, it is also impermissible and a sin to enter such a place. there are hadith which explicitly forbid both actions. because in the first one is attempting to flee from the Divine Decree and in the second, one wants to (deliberately) fight (or face) an affliction, a trial imposed by Divine Decree.

    and to present the excuse of 'exhibiting trust' [in Allah] is utter stupidity. Trust in Providence [tawakkul] is not the name of abandoning means"
     
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  6. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    My points are specifically regarding congregating in the Masajid. The houses of Allah. A place where people would congregrate in the past whenever such outbreaks and plagues would occur, and plead to Allah for His mercy and forgiveness. If one has examples of Masajid being vacated to due outbreaks/plagues, in the past, please share.

    On the other hand, I have heard numerous accounts of people running to Allah in such times rather then hiding themselves in their houses.
    Once again, just my personal opinion, and I could possibly be 100% misunderstanding the whole scenario.
     
  7. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member


    So if many of the elderly and (young) firmly believe in "La Adwa" and they act upon it, would they be considered unintelligent? They may or may not get the disease. But are they to blame for firmly believing in this hadith?
     
  8. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    If I were to guess, based on my own personal opinion, I would say no one, if they both firmly believe in "La Adwa."
     
  9. And if the elderly man who would rather die of the virus than miss Congregational Prayer infected another elderly man who wanted to live longer to do more good then who carries the main burden of responsibility?
     
  10. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    because people are not intelligent to make the correct decision. many of our 'elderly' (it is not just a disease of the elderly by the way!) live with their extended families anyway so if the young catch the virus in large congregations they will just get it from them. you can read congregational salah at home. i can tell you from personal experience things are getting worse by the day. ITU's are starting to fill up and the NHS will be overflowing with COVID patients unless drastic measures are taken.... you only need look at what has already happened in China and Italy.
     
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    lots of things, lot of mixed thoughts, lots of responses, lot of emotions, etc.

    all natural in a time of crisis

    some of my random bullet points (for myself, in no particular order, and also addressed by others on here)

    - this crisis may be natural or a part of covert or overt bio warfare (man made)
    - either way, we as Muslims and common folk need to deal with it in terms of precautions and treatments
    - reasons for considering conspiracies - timing is major - see the oil prices and markets, international military exercises in wuhan a mere few weeks before this, almost looks like the economical giants (countries and corporations) are working in unison to control and exploit this situation to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, to destroy small business as best as possible, leverage the situation for political gain and control, the world is in no mood for actual war right now, so the powers that be need another control mechanism at this point in time
    - indian government is lying about the numbers, tons of poor people die daily for n number of reasons, covid-19 is/will be just one of them. the only way indian numbers would explode and be noticeable realistically is if enough middle class people get it
    - are things blown out of proportion in regards to quarantine and safety measures and flattening the curve? next 8-10 weeks and the data available then will make it clear. it will also make it clear in hindsight if the decisions taken now on many Islamic matters were right or not
    - ebola was not the white west's problem as rightly pointed out. it was also out of sight for all or most Muslims. this is different in terms of the sphere of influence

    you have actual nass of the Quran regarding Sayyidina Ibrahim (3alaihis salam) sitting in the fire. why not try that too?

    what about the Prophet's (3alaihis salam) companions consuming poisoned meat (without knowing) and passing away? is Asrar Rashid's status/knowledge higher than them?

    i saw that video actually and thought the other guys were bluffing or something, and Asrar Rashid merrily called their bluff, effectively giving them the birdie. even if he did drink real rat poison, it doesn't mean anything.

    sorry, and this isn't your fault, but your arguments are the result of our "educational" culture of not focusing on the main priorities of the Shariah and its various branches of knowledge and fiqh, but rather the desi Sunni culture of living in a world full of emotional speeches, fazail, naatkhwani and karaamaat - ironically, something which shaykh Asrar Rashid tries his best to undo
     
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  12. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    No doubt, what you are saying is 100% correct. And what brother Abu Hasan is saying absolutely makes sense and there is no disagreement regarding the points raised.

    The question is, does one leave the masjid open, and then advise everyone, especially the elderly to be cautious and avoid attending the masjid if they feel that they are at risk? In other words, leave the choice to the people, including the elderly whether they wish to attend or not? Perhaps some of the elderly are at the level of Iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die because of such an attendance rather than stay home due to a virus (that is under Allah's control) and risk missing the congregation salah. In other words, missing congregational salah is more difficult on them than dying from a virus, for example.
     
  13. حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْحَمِيدِ بْنُ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي الْعِشْرِينَ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ أَبِي رَبَاحٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، يُخْبِرُ أَنَّ رَجُلاً، أَصَابَهُ جُرْحٌ فِي رَأْسِهِ عَلَى عَهْدِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ثُمَّ أَصَابَهُ احْتِلاَمٌ فَأُمِرَ بِالاِغْتِسَالِ فَاغْتَسَلَ فَكُزَّ فَمَاتَ فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ قَتَلُوهُ قَتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَفَلَمْ يَكُنْ شِفَاءَ الْعِيِّ السُّؤَالُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ عَطَاءٌ وَبَلَغَنَا أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ قَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ غَسَلَ جَسَدَهُ وَتَرَكَ رَأْسَهُ حَيْثُ أَصَابَهُ الْجِرَاحُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

    It was narrated that 'Ata' bin Abu Rabah said:

    "I heard Ibn 'Abbas saying that a man was injured in the head at the time of the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim), then he had a wet dream. He was told to have a bath, so he took the bath, became rigid and stiff, and died. News of that reached the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim) and he said: 'They have killed him, may Allah kill them! Is not the cure for a lack of knowledge to ask questions?'"'Ata' said: "We heard that the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim) said: 'If only he had washed his body and left his head alone where the wound was.'"


    Grade Sahih-Ibn Majah

    Salaam. Those who want to keep the Masajid open might want to reflect on the Hadith and see how it might apply to the discussion. You see, there is a scenario that you carry the infection without knowing and having prayed next to an elderly man with a heart condition you end up killing him. Then it would mean "you killed him". Now do you understand the points Shaykh Abu Hasan is making? As far as I can see, this Religion has so much Mercy that even if the chance of death was 0.0001% but still present there would be a dispensation to save life.
     
  14. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    sidi abu hasan,

    shaykh asrar rashid drank rat poison if we were to take asbab why did shaykh asrar drink rat poison? because he was following the hadith, similar if someone diabetic eata honey because of honey, what is wrong with it?

    why is it ok not to take asbab for rat poison but ok for covid 19 coronavirus, i have posted this question to shaykh asrar but don't know if he read it or if his students passed him my question.

    you can see shaykh asrar's video on youtube regarding rat poison.
     
  15. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member


    Regarding honey: I personally know a practicing medical doctor (muslim, naqshbandi) who was asked by a diabetic patient whether honey would be a cure as is stated in the ahadith. The doctor responded, "according to science no, according to Islam and the Sunnah yes." He then went on to mention a story about a man in egypt who had diabetes and upon hearing that honey had shifaa as per the ahadith, he drank/ate a whole bowl of honey, and he ended up getting cured.

    So i guess it comes down to the level of iman of the individual, as Ala Hazrat mentioned, regarding the ahadith that prevent people from mixing with those that are infected. And this varies from individual to individual. But on a collective level, perhaps its wise to focus on presenting the rukhsah opinions.

    So those whose iman is at that level that they are confident enough to know that even if they were to hypothetically happen to mix with those infected, for whatever reason, and they do get infected, then they can accept it as divine will. And for those who do have the fear of getting infected due to mixing with people, then they should take extra precautions.

    Obviously, i dont mean jump in front of a speeding car, relying on divine will to save one.
     
  16. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    that is beside the point (and has been circumvented using other assumptions).

    Things could easily get worse from here as the curve plays it out in different countries. One saving grace for subcontinent is the approaching warm weather which may significantly slow down virus spread.

    but it is still not bad enough, in my opininon, to close down masajids without an end in sight (while public transport, shops etc. are still operational, albeit well below the regular level)
     
  17. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    A lock down in India/Pakistan is almost impossible unless they actually impose curfews. We can only pray!
     
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a wait game. let us see how the coming two weeks toll in the subcontinent. given the near non-existent public health infrastructure of third world countries and the inevitable interaction of too many people - all the theories will be tested.

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    we pray for aafiyah.
     
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    according to alahazrat and other hanafi jurists, there is no juma in the west. that was the opinion of tajush shariah as well. and that is the fatwa of the late mufti abdul wajid in his fatawa europe. just sayin'.

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    fatawa ridawiyyah, v8 p.379

    FR v8p379.png


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    fatawa europe p183-184

    ftw europe, p183.png



    p184

    ftw europe p184.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  20. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    let's do some quick maths.

    Lombardy, the worst-hit Italian province, has population of ~ 10 million
    23% of these are aged 65+ (higher than European and significantly more than the global average); i.e. 2.3 million

    as of date, 2,550 covid-19 deaths have been reported in Lombardy
    which works to 0.11% death rate

    since this occurred over 4 weeks, we can annualise the death rate to 1.44%. For that segment of population, this mortality rate is not alarming or statistically significant deviation from the normal. Mind you, winter deaths (that too mainly from respiratory complications, and we can count covid as a new factor) are anyway significantly higher among the elderly (the UK data being the case in point).

    So why are alarm bells ringing (for 'whom the bell tolls' anyway for one reason or the other)? Just because a new, uncertain (less understood) danger is at white man's doorstep?

    Calamities/punishments are great levellers; with weevils, wheat grains also get crushed. For sure, Muslims too will die when afflicted with coronavirus. It's hard to imagine any different level of immunity (besides the fact that practising Muslims will less likely be contaminating). Plagues of past didn't spare Muslims.


    Will shuttering the masajids ensure that Muslims escape the pandemic deaths? Rational approach should be to allow non-elderly, non-vulnerable to carry on as usual with congregational prayers (with all necessary precautions).

    But rationality is the first casualty in times of panic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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