Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by Juwayni, Dec 11, 2021.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Some important points to consider:
    • Is the intoxicating ability of a substance judged qualitatively or quantitatively?
    • If it is judged quantitative, where do we draw the line for minute amounts of ethanol produced (certain or speculatively) as a result of fermentation? E.g. you may find tiny amounts of it if you use sufficiently sensitive tools even in juices.
    • The distinction between fermentation and adulteration.
    • Secondary considerations about the point of intoxication. E.g. if a natural process produces so much acid in a liquid that before you reach the 'large quantity' needed to intoxicate, the acid would kill you, then do we even take theoretical points of intoxication into account?
    • Would subsequent fermentation be tabdil al-mahiya and thus a method for dealcohilization, such as with vinegar.
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    right here on earth too, don't be surprised if in the next 5-10 years your city is recycling sewage water and sending it to the taps in your home.

    bill gates is also a proponent of this technology -

    on the covid vaccine, the devbandis and nadwis apparently said

    i don't remember too well now, but i might have heard some Sunni aalim on QTV also say the same thing about something totally changing its characteristics and properties. he too was talking about the vaccine. don't know if that rule is only for daroorah or general.

    of course, covid is a different issue than some nouveau riche modern liberal Muslims raising (in their minds) a 100% halal-toast with 0% volume champagne

    i too am not being argumentative. just trying to get my head around this.

    to be honest, i'm more concerned about points 2,3,4 in my op. if at all (some or all) Sunnis (desis or non-desis) rule the product halal, i'd really hate to see it become a social ritual in society. i hate the cake cutting ritual as it is. people (desis and non-desis alike) can't seem to have a "budday" or a wedding or any happy occasion (a store opening anniversary with staff; inauguration of a new shop, etc.) without cutting cakes. just imagine a new ship sailing off on a maiden voyage and tahirul or jifry "christening" it breaking a bottle of 0% volume champagne on it!
  3. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    why is vinegar different?(not trying to dispute with you, I am genuinely curious). The urine case intrigued me the most since astronauts recycle urine in order to reclaim the water for drinking.
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is haram.

    i recently had to answer someone so i have some research on this. will share later.

    most french dishes use rum as an ingredient, or rum in some chocolates or even alcohol used to process natural vanilla.

    in all these cases, the alcohol does not remain - but the products are not halal because of the najasah that was poured in it.

    urine is not najis just because of the urea. if one distills urine to have pure h20, it still remains and najis to consume.

    starting out with beer and removing alcohol content may be no-alcohol,but it is not najasat free. remember that.

    wAllahu a'alam.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Dealcoholization is about removing alcohol out of beverages (or other products?).

    It's a big trend in the khaleej now since last 3 to 4 yrs to consume dealcoholized drinks - 0% alcohol beers were around for a long time, now you can also get 0% red and white wines, rum, gin, tequila, scotch, basically all "spirits" (apparently it's even picking up in the west. see here for example

    1. Will this be halal to consume purely on the fiqh technicality for the product?

    2. Assuming it is halal on the fiqh technicality, what about the fatwa vs taqwa scenario? Should people still avoid it as it will induce aping and admiration of the kuffar as if we didn't already have enough of it?

    3. How about thinking of it in a fatwa vs fatwa scenario - Halal product on a fiqh technicality but will it be ruled not so halal once you consider من تشبه بقوم فهو منهم and لتتبعن سنن الذين من قبلكم?

    4. Maslaha vs mafsada considerations - will it open the door to full fledged alcoholic drinks consumption by our 'youf' or will it be a welcome deterrent to it?

    5. What if it has some purported health benefits?

    Apparently, according to this article, 0% alcohol red wine reduces risk of stroke, but is that only in people who are otherwise consumers of the alcoholic wine, or overall in all people? Of course the scientific deductions require more data, but the fiqh question can be asked in advance. We desi Sunnis have a penchant for being ahead of our times.

    What have our scholars ruled on this new trend regarding the above?

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