Deconstructing Tahir's Thought

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by abu Hasan, Oct 11, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    tahir's assertion in this video, where he smugly says:

    i have looked up many books (which i will list later) but i cannot find this narration. i would like to know which is the hadith cited by tahir.

    thanks to aqdas for transcribing the clip.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have slightly modified the above questions.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this video:

    tahir's ignorance is incredible. as i have asked earlier, will tahir do and allow everything the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam allowed? so what stops him from allowing muta'a? or allowing people to drink wine as long as they don't pray when they are inebriated?

    refuting him is like attempting to refute a donkey.*

    the guy doesn't even know the basics of islam or the background of famous ahadith. so, what is the status of supplication of a kafir? then what is the point of calling them to 'pray' for peace or anything else?

    can tahir jhangvi - who has compiled a 25,000 and a 5,000 and another 5,000 hadith describe the following concerning the hadith: 'expel the jews and the people of najran (the christians) from the arabian peninsula (min jazirati'l arab)'

    1. how many hadith books does this appear in?

    2. was this before or after the wafd of najran (of the sixty)?

    3. who are the narrators of this hadith?

    4. what is the status of this hadith?

    5. why is this mentioned often in tafsirs?

    6. what was the wasiyyah of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam to sayyiduna ali raDiyallahu ta'ala anhu concerning the people of najran?

    7. if it is not a strain on your resources, please write a one page summary with at least 15 fiqh rulings derived from any of the hadith that contain this command.

    the problem with tahir's claim of delegations of christians from najran and Habshah (abyssinia/ethiopia), is it is all convoluted. perhaps it is my below average intelligence or lack of knowledge - but i cannot make out which hadith tahir is talking about. i think we lesser mortals need a little bit of clarification before we proceed:

    1. which is the narration of the wafd of najran, that tahir mentions in this video?

    2. is it found in books of hadith (like sahih al-bukhari etc.) or siyar/tarikh?

    3. what is the context of this wafd (delegation) and their prayer in masjid nabawi?

    4. did they ask permission of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and he gave them? or did he simply not stop them?

    5. in a totally different narration, a bedouin man urinated in the masjid and when some people wanted to take him to task, the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. said: 'leave him alone.' does this mean that we can invite people to urinate in masjids?

    6. is there any other significant event associated with this delegation or it ends with merely the mention of praying 'according to their tradition.'?

    7. what did Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam tell them after the delegation had prayed?

    8. state 8 fiqh rulings derived from the narrations about this delegation?

    concerning the wafd of habashah - tahir claims thusly:
    1. which is this wafd and in what year did this event occur?

    2. who were the leaders of this wafd?

    3. in which books are these narrations found?

    tahir goes mixing up everything and following his comment of habashah, he goes back to the najran delegation and says:

    until he says:
    1. which are those 70+ verses of the qur'an that were revealed related to a christian delegation?

    2. is there a specific verse of the qur'an that concerns the najran delegation? if there is, then which is it?

    3. what is the consensus of mufassirin on the tafsir of the ayah - if such exists - in #2 above.

    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this thread is locked. please start another thread to discuss this.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a fine technique tahir has mastered. the fine technique of having a bastion host. that is, tahir's 'idea' is retold by his close associates. if it is a hit, tahir gets the credit. if it is a fail, the fall-guy (or fall-woman) takes the hit. where did he say so? this is why it is difficult to nail the cunning fellow.

    so here is throwing the gauntlet: we assume that tahir wrote those books and is responsible for all those outlandish 'ijtihad' on his site. all i do is as much as visit a page and find dozens of anomalies.

    take this incident of sayyiduna umar that his lieutenant analyzes, as explained by tahir. get it before it goes down the memory hole:

    now, this is all nice and dandy. but for a person who compiles 20,000 hadith and another 5000 and 5000, i wonder where he got all this stuff from:

    1. parliament
    2. bill

    i won't spend much time analyzing this wild and fancy ijtihad, but let us go to the facts first:

    this event occurred in and around the masjid. sayyiduna umar raDiyallahu anhu rose up the minbar (according to the narration, though it is classified as weak) and said what he said. and when he came down, a woman asked him: 'did you say this' and he said 'yes' so she said what she said. [inShaAllah i will translate the whole story later]

    so sayyiduna umar went back and rose up the minbar and corrected it.

    i hope they will allow me to assume that it was masjid e nabawi - because i assume a minbar is in a masjid and probably in sayyiduna umar's time, the masjid in which sayyiduna umar stood was masjid e nabawi.

    now where is the parliament, where are the members, where is the speaker and the bill and where is the 'member of parliament' standing up and objecting to the bill?

    i hope the other 24,999 hadith are well researched.

    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have seen tahir jhangvi's modus operandi for a long time. he never misses a photo-op and then claim that whoever was there in that photo is tahir's student - one who learnt from tahir and what not. notice, in the pics that for some reason he always sits on a chair when others sit below. even sayyids.

    the guy doesn't know the meaning of commonly known hadith; rather, the man doesn't know basic aqidah and runs away with shudhudh as if he has found a touchstone. i simply cannot understand how anyone with basic knowledge of aqidah or hadith can even consider him as a 'master'.

    one reason i have not touched his 'books' is because, i am told they are largely ghost-written; and tahir apparently explained in a meeting that there is a committee or something and they work as a team etc. it is a very tricky situation. if we analyze the book or pick out the number of flaws, it will quickly be blamed on the fall-guys.

    the other thing is, accomplished authors develop a style of their own. particularly, when they have written a dozen books or more. for example, if you read five to ten books of alahazrat, you will see a pattern and when you see a paragraph even when not credited, you will recognize the style: the way sentences are formed, the length of sentences, clauses, etc.
    the more prolific the writer, the more distinct the style. over a period of time some elements may slightly change but largely, the author's stamp is recognizable.

    yes, there can be similarities with other writers - whether it is because of a direct influence or because one copies the other, or for some reason has a matching style. BUT - it is difficult to believe that the same author who writes hundreds of books, writes in different ways and has not developed a trademark style.

    when you browse the so-called books of tahir, you don't get the feeling that it is written by the same person. in fact, even within the same book there are discrepancies. or perhaps, i have been just unlucky to have browse the wrong books.

    regardless, it is incredible to believe that tahir has written these many books: see here.

    even the claims are so tall that i just was wondering how can tahir manage all this in spite of such extensive engagements - public functions, seminars, visits around the world etc.

    talking of bibliophiles - i tend to think that those who love books and read a lot prefer solitude and will find excuses to escape the social circuit. and if one is a writer, how can he concentrate with so much of distraction? conversely, how can someone write so much with so many public engagements? perhaps tahir jhangvi is a genius and we don't know. maybe.

    but i was wondering when i saw this:

    now imam bukhari's collection - in spite of his immense knowledge of hadith contains 4000 or so (unique) hadith and he took 16 years to compile it. and by his own mention, he had memorized 200 thousand hadith. i don't think tahir has even memorized forty hadith - if he has, let him narrate forty hadith with the full sanad in a jalsa (private videos are suspect because of teleprompters). i am just underlining the difference between imam bukhari and tahir jhangvi - because ignorant murids have a habit of elevating their shaykhs above imam bukhari, even if their shaykh doesn't know the full name of imam bukhari.

    why is this important?

    let us say, that i have to compile 25,000 hadith in 20 volumes. i have the following options:
    1. obtain major books of hadith - or hadith software with search capabilities* and copy-paste these many hadith.

    2. read most collections, and go through asaneed, compare them, verify in various collections, categorize or classify them and then begin listing them by hand - or if i prefer typing, i would have to type it; or at the minimum, cut-paste and verify every word is right.

    3. just copy huge chunks from various compilations and make my own compilation. this is an editor's job and one cannot claim hadith scholarship for this.
    now, the first option is fairly easy and can be done easily and quickly. but the downside is, there is no reliability of this collection. the third option is also similar, but it is even worse - copy-paste without even reading the text. many people do this on forums - they just google a hadith and copy-paste large chunks. you cannot call them hadith experts merely for this expertise in cut-n-paste.

    the second option, is what REAL compilers of hadith do - and conversely, only those who do this deserve to be called as REAL compilers of hadith. because, they pour their knowledge, observation and years of learning into it. don't you see imam bukhari took 16 years to 'select' hadith for his collection?

    even when a person has phenomenal knowledge of hadith, there are still constraints, like time, for example. it takes time to read and corroborate the hadith. and anyone who has spent some time doing research work in hadith is time consuming. like investigating ruwwat, or the routes, or comparing aTraf etc. - or even the mere occupational hazard of a researcher: digression. because, unless you are a phenomenal arabic scholar whose vocabulary is as big as murtada zabidi, you may want to look up the meaning of words in the hadith, now and then. and when you read a hadith, you may wonder about its hukm. any serious student/scholar will not proceed until he has clarified the ishkal. otherwise, what is the point of being a mere copyist?

    forgive me for my audacious remarks, but if a student/scholar wants to compile even a hundred hadith, and in the course of this period, does not look up associated sciences - whether fiqh, tafsir, or meanings or historical significance, comparative fiqh - i have serious doubts about his claim to scholarship. a scholar is hungry for knowledge and his appetite will not whetted so easily.

    i have still not made my point, and i will come to that shortly.

    all of this takes activity takes time and it cannot be done in a hurry. take a well-known collection like mishkat al-masabih. select a chapter of say 20 hadith and try to do takhrij from only the mention of the book made by al-tabrizi. just notice how long it takes to work it out and compare.

    my point is, where does tahir jhangvi get so much time to compile 25,000 hadith with itqan and taHqiq and yet find so much time to monkey around? how can a person who is immersed in the sublime speech of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam bear to listen to bhajans and shirk?

    on serious counts, 25,000 hadith is not a simple business. as i said, if it is just cut and paste, it is of little value in our time. but if this is a collection of some really useful sort - which no scholar has done before, i am not able to understand how he can he even read so many hadith and compile volumes of hadith with so much of extra-curricular activities?

    a few questions concerning this massive collection purported to be compiled by tahir jhangvi:

    how is it different from such major collections like (because each of the below is a special class of compilation):

    1. jami'y al-masanid wa's sunan of ibn kathir

    2. ahadith al-mukhtarah of diya al-maqdisi

    3. jamiy'ul ahadith of imam suyuti (about 20,000+) hadith

    4. it'Haf al-maharah of ibn Hajar (about 25,500) hadith

    5. tuHfatu'l ashraf of al-mizzi

    let us assume tahir is a polymath and a superman and a very talented person and he has indeed managed to do all this.

    i also expect that he being a grand hadith master will therefore not make simple mistakes in hadith or ruwwaat. and if we find such mistakes back and forth - what is the reliability of the 20K collection or the credibility of the compiler?

    with such a claim, will tahir answer in public to tests of his knowledge. remember, even imam bukhari was tested for his memory - and when imam nablusi wrote an eloquent poem, his contemporaries found it incredible; so he wrote an equally eloquent sharH (nasmat al-as'Har).

    so it is tradition to test such claims. will tahir in public and attendance of ulama answer to this:

    1. show us the manuscripts of the book if unpublished

    2. or give us the book (all 20 volumes) if published

    3. ulama will scrutinize the hadith collection and at random 200 of these 20,000 hadith will be selected. tahir should be able to do the following extempore:
    a) given the raawi, and the matn, he should be able to collect the aTraf from the maSadir (source books)

    b) given a piece of hadith, he should be able to find all the ruwwat (in all related narrations) for that particular hadith and he is welcome to use the SOURCE BOOKS. he should not look up shuruh which mention cross-references, nor modern editions with takhrij.

    c) if this is too difficult, we will not talk about the 50 or so books of hadith hafiz ibn hajar used in his compilation; we can work with only the famous six books: the SiHaH sittah. the 100 will be selected from the six.

    notice that we are talking of only 200 from the 20,000 collection. that is 1% and if tahir can answer satisfactorily even 50% of these hadith, we will accept that he has written a 20,000 compilation. notice that we will only keep quiet about the claim that he has compiled 20,000; any issues with the compilation will remain and so also our difference with his unislamic actions.

    even if his hadith knowledge exceeds ibn Hajar's, i will not care as long as he is not fully concordant to the usul of ulama of ahlu's sunnah; but that is a different topic altogether.

    some more questions:

    1.did he write or did he type?
    • if he wrote it out on paper using a ballpoint pen, how many hadith can you write in an hour?
    • and if he typed it out: how fast does he type?
    • or did he do imla'a and someone else wrote it down?
    if he didn't do any of the above, cut-n-paste is cheating and it is haram to claim something we didn't do.

    2. how long did it take to compile this edition? how many years did it take; and how many days in a week on an average and how many hours in a day on an average was spent in compiling this edition.

    3. if he wrote or typed, he must have read the hadith. i don't know of a person who writes or types without having read it first. just remember this point.

    4. now the compilation was culled from how many sources? and what are the names of these sources?

    5. where can i get this collection? again, it is either as a manuscript or as a printed edition. a group of ulama will inspect this manuscript or give us the collection.

    6. or at least the first volume - or at least the muqaddimah explaining the plan of the book, and what was the method of choosing the hadith and the order in which it is arranged.

    7. either he has to refer to these sources and copy this from the book; or he has memorized all these hadith - so he can write it down from memory.
    a. if he has to refer to these sources - was it read out to him by his assistants or did he read it himself, before writing it down? (to calculate how long it takes to copy one hadith)

    b. if he has memorized all these hadith, our questions will be simplified: 'we will select 200 hadith from the collection and ask you to narrate the hadith (we won't even mix it up).
    8. when he copied them, either he blindly copied them without bothering about the correct iyrab or wondering about the exactness of the word; or he has the ability to correlate and explain the hadith. how much of this does he have remains to be seen. first let us ascertain his powers of riwayah, we will then talk about dirayah.

    preemptive strike:
    how much of the above can i do from this?

    1. i am not shaykh al-islam.

    2. i have not claimed that i have compiled a massive 20,000 hadith collection.

    3. i have no reservation in proclaiming that i am a beginner-student of islamic sciences, with very very cursory knowledge in deen. we ask Allah to give us knowledge that is beneficial and give benefit from what we know.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Aqdas likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page