divergence on imkan al-kadhib thread

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by naqshbandijamaati, Feb 2, 2010.

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  1. this sums up deobandits perfectly. one face for publc consumption amongst arabs; another face altogether amongst desis and their own kind.

  2. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ala Hadrat was a gem. Allah gifted him with many qualities. I like the approach of Allama Yaseen Akhtar misbahi. When he wants to talk about Imam Ahmed Raza Khan, or any sunni personality,he quotes ancient scholars and shows their view. He quotes , quran , hadith , quotes of salaf as saliheen , quotes of imams of fiqh and hadith and in the end he shows that Imam Ahmed Raza Khan also held the same view.

    Ala Hadarat himself used this method. If we read his books we find that he showed that he is not the first person to propogate a view as his opponets falsely propogate. In all the issues he quotes scholars who were before him. Look at his book dealing with the use of pictures of blessed sandals of prophet ( sal allahu alayhi wa sallam) . He quotes famous scholars to show that this has always been accepted.

    Deobandis are hypocrites. And I can write a book to prove this. I will mention a few points.

    1. Deobandis agreed with barelwis that wahabis/ ahle hadith are misguided and they also made takfir on them . [ See fatwa of muhaddith surati ] Deobandis criticised Ibn Abdal Wahab Najdi in al muhannad, where as ibn adam and other deobandi mufti praise ibn abdal wahab.

    2. Deobandis wrote in al muhannad that the life of prophet in grave is real life just like life of this world. Ibn adam agrees with this view. Mufti desai says that , the life of prophet in grave is hayat e barzakhi and not real life. A recent fatwa from darul uloom deoband( darulifta) goes against al muhannad and says that life is barzakhi and not like dunyawi.

    I can list many issues where :

    1 a particular deobandi "akabir" has self contradicted.

    2 Where deobandi scholars have gone totally opposite to each other.

    3. Where deobandi scholars have gone totally against what they have written in al muhannad.


    The advantage of this hypocrisy is that when these deobandis meet sunni scholars outside the subcontinent they say" we are also sunni. See it is written in al muhannad that the life of prophet in grave is like hayat e dunyawi". So arab sunni scholar starts to think deobandi as 'sunni".

    When the same deobandi meets a wahabi scholar( deobandism is a sub sect of wahabism), he says " see , mufti desai and darul ifta says that life of prophet in grave is hayat e barzakhi and we are not like "them" who say that life of prophet in grave is like hayat e duyawi. So the wahabi thinks that this deobandi is also a wahabi like me.

    In this way on many issues these deobandis play games. And then shamelessly they say "our deobandi scholars have been praised by schloars all over the world".!

    Insha Allah this should ber taken up later where hypocrisy of deobandis will be shown.

    Note: Deobandis have recently published a fabricated version of Tohfa ithana asharia, by Shah Abdul Aziz muhaddith dehalvi(rh). Insha Allah,this will be mentioned in detail later.
  3. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    We at Sunniport have always maintained that there are two kinds of deobandis today:

    1) the original ones, whom NJ called the unrefined ones, those of deobandiforum.com or others like desai and mufti sajjad on the net

    2) the ibn adam, mangera, tahir anwar, faraz kind

    But it now seems, I should break down the second kind into two

    once again

    2) the ibn adam, mangera, tahir anwar kind, who associate with the unrefined deobandis in #1

    3) those who believe that the akabir have been seriously misunderstood by both the deobandis in #1 and barelwis. If you look into the books of the akabir, you will see that they said something totally different
  4. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    we know that. But there is no harm, and nothing wrong in focusing or beginning through one personality. If you believe its more work, then thats your weakness. Others find it exhilarating. sorry.

    the former is dull. sorry again
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    as far as I know about our elders right from the mujtahid mutlaq's until the scholars of the recent history, including Ala Hazrat himself, they had this superior approach ... i don't see the need or the logic in downgrading to the latter windows-style Sunni OS
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    you're missing the point... let me try to say it in [somewhat clumsy] computer lingo...

    a truth-centered and knowledge-centered approach has a built in feature to defend any Sunni personality, that automatically activates itself the minute it detects a threat ...

    with a [genuine Sunni] personality-centered approach, you have the extra work of installing the knowledge and truth certificates yourself PLUS you will have to manually run the knowledge and truth scan on the personality too, to take care of any threats and fix/quarantine them

    the former is a far superior, advanced, efficient and user-friendly approach with minimal to no chances of error on our part, while the latter can let you to fumble up easier ... it's like Mac Snow Leopard vs Windows ...
  7. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Yes, abdalQadir is correct. Even deviants can praise and have a good opinion of 'ala Hadrat. However, NJ is also emphasizing an important point that should not be missed:

    The praise that most of those people have for 'ala HaDrat is truly LIP-SERVICE.

    Thats not true. We Sunnis defend Sunni personalities as well. We defend our leaders, our brothers, and our ummah as a whole.

    There is nothing wrong in promoting the personality of 'Ala HaDrat, because, he is FAR MORE CREDIBLE THAN US, and he is one of the elders. It is through him, and others like him, and other higher than him, before him, that we promote the truth. He is our rhetorical means.

    I think what you are really trying to say is that, don't get "too" personality-centred. Take the middle path. Its not about 'ala HaDrat, Shaykh AnwarulAllah Farooqi, Pir Karam Shah, but its about ahl al-sunnah.

    Actually, MOST, or may be all those who have lost focus, are basically uneducated, non-traditionally trained, non-scholars. They could well be internet chatters mud-slinging on others.

    There is nothing wrong in promoting personalities and groups, as long as it is done the balanced, proper, way. Only traditionally trained 'ulama and students are capable of that, for example, Shaykh GF Haddad.

    Yes, why not?

    We all know about this.

    'amir liaqat is a fraud, dunya mongerer. What do you expect from such people? Their vested interests are clear to the public. Its not difficult to decipher amir liaqat, for a basic student of traditional knowledge. But he is nothing compared to our members on Sunniport, or Sunnis on the net, who are genuine. Non-genuine people are everywhere. I think a better example is yanafi website.

    Yes the beastily nature is there, but the above is a thing that any sane, thinking person can see clearly. We should at the same tme differentiate between people who recognize the beast, and have comprehensive thought, and those that do give into the beast. The latter ones could be genuine and non-genuine, and could even be scholars. The formers ones are usually genuine and take the balanced way.
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    our focus should be on promoting the truth of the Ahlus Sunnah, if they are with the truth, it doesn't matter if they do or don't know Ala Hazrat or his greatness

    the way of the Ahlus Sunnah is to focus on the truth and the tenets of the Ahlus Sunnah, it's only a "side-effect" that in the process personalities too end up shining luminously, and command unsurpassed honor and prestige from Muslims worldwide, be it Seyyidina 'Umar radi Allahu 'anhu or Imam-e-A'zdham or Imam Ahmad or Imam Ghazali, or Ghawth-e-A'zdham rahimahumullaah

    only those who don't have the truth on their side worry about defending personalities

    those people can do what ever they want to defend who ever they want... we are Sunnis and have the truth on our side... we should stay focused on the truth rather than promoting a personality (EVEN IF the personality is Ala Hazrat)

    ... and this kind of personality-centered attitude won't help it either, it only muddles things up.


    Ala Hazrat himself focused his attention on the truth and the tenets of the Ahlus Sunnah and in the process became "Ala Hazrat" himself .... very sadly, those who love and admire him* have very badly lost focus** from "upholding the truth" to promoting personalities and groups, which simply is not right, EVEN IF that personality is Ala Hazrat

    you love and admire him, and want his name to shine even more than it does? promote the cause of the Ahlus Sunnah... use his works and the knowledge he disseminated to uphold the cause of the truth ... his name will shine automatically.

    its similar to the old marketing gig... you want to sell drill bits? talk about the hole.

    * genuinely OR superficially: many a time the superficial admirers have personal vested interests, it's become a fashion amongst Sunnis and semi-Sunnis to flaunt his name to gain popularity or credibility, a good example is the shiaism promoter aamer liaquath hussein, who too uses his name

    ** to accord them the benefit of doubt, guess it's the nature of the beast, considering for subcontinentals it's an issue of who said what and when and how and where, that people (scholars included) might have a shift in focus towards defending personalities

    just a humble personal opinion.

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