good question. and i have a straightforward answer: i don't know. i have this book 'munaDHarat ibn taymiyyah' and it refers to this debate being 'reliably' reported. i began searching for it in ibn kathir's al-bidayah wa'n nihayah but couldn't find it. i tried Husn al-Muhadarah, but no luck. ibn kathir did not even mention that imam ibn `aTaAllah passed away in 709. check out the wafyat section of 709AH. no mention of ahmed ibn Muhammad ibn `aTaAllah. it is mentioned however, that debates took place and ibn kathir is biased towards ibn taymiyyah. he criticizes one ibn `aTa of leveling charges against ibn taymiyyah, none of which according to ibn kathir were true. this ibn `aTa is ambiguous - because there was another ibn `aTa al-Hanafi who was against ibn taymiyyah. if ibn kathir is referring to imam ibn `aTaAllah, then surely his prejudice is obvious. anyway, ibn kathir - inspite of his standing - fails in being judicious when it comes to ibn taymiyyah. may Allah forgive him and have mercy on him. [the reason why i say he was injudicious is because he is himself an ash`ari and aids the cause prominently in his tafsir - including ziyarah and sifat. those who opposed ibn taymiyyah was because of it, not because they envied ibn taymiyyah.] -------- the debate is in itself useful even though it might be fictitious [i don't know]. i am myself in the process of ascertaining the source but i made haste in posting it, trusting shaykh hisham's references in the english article. he gives the following references which i shall cross-check, inshaAllah once i am free. until then, i will edit my original post such that it does not give a wrong impression that i have seen it. from shaykh hisham's article and its footnote: "From Usul al-Wusul by Muhammad Zaki Ibrahim Ibn Kathir, Ibn al-Athir, and other authors of biographical dictionaries and biographies have transmitted to us this authentic historical debate" [1] Footnote: See Ibn al-`Imad, Shadharat al-dhahab (1350/1931) 6:20f.; al- Zirikly, al-A`lam (1405/1984) 1:221; Ibn Hajar, al-Durar al-kamina (1348/1929) 1:148-273; Al-Maqrizi, Kitab al-suluk (1934-1958) 2:40-94; Ibn Kathir, al-Bidaya wa al-nihaya (1351/1932) 14:45; Subki, Tabaqat al-shafi`iyya (1324/1906) 5:177f. and 9:23f.; Suyuti, Husn al-muhadara fi akhbar misr wa al-qahira (1299/) 1:301; al-Dawadari, al-Durr al-fakhir fi sirat al-malik al-Nasir (1960) p. 200f.; al-Yafi`i, Mir'at al-janan (1337/1918) 4:246; Sha`rani, al-Tabaqat al-kubra (1355/1936) 2:19f.; al-Nabahani, Jami` karamat al-awliya' (1381/1962) 2:25f. ----------------------- here shaykh hisham might either be saying that a general mention of the debate took place or that the debate is reported entirely in one of these books. so the first one to check it and post it here gets four stars Allah ta'ala knows best.
as-salamu alaikum bro what have you been able to find out about the authenticity of the debate? specifically, where has the actual specific text of the debate been recorded? In Durar al Kamina of Ibn Hajar (1/92) only the following was mentioned: أحمد بن محمد الشاذلي بن عبد الكريم بن عطاء الله تاج الدين أبو الفضل الشاذلي صحب الشيخ أبا العباس المرسي صاحب الشاذلي وصنف مناقبه ومناقب شيخه وكان المتكلم على لسان الصوفية في زمانه وهو ممن قام على الشيخ تقي الدين بن تيمية فبالغ في ذلك وكان يتكلم على الناس وله في ذلك تصانيف عديدة ومات في نصف جمادى الآخرة سنة 709 بالمدرسة المنصورية كهلا وكانت جنازته حافلة رحمه الله تعالى، قال الذهبي كانت له جلالة عجيبة ووقع في النفوس ومشاركة في الفضائل ورأيت الشيخ تاج الدين الفارقي لما رجع من مصر معظما لوعظه وإشارته وكان يتكلم بالجامع الأزهر فوق كرسي بكلام يروح النفوس ومزج كلام القوم بآثار السلف وفنون العلم فكثر أتباعه وكانت عليه سيما الخير ويقال أن ثلاثة قصدوا مجلسه فقال أحدهم لو سلمت من العائلة لتجردت وقال الآخر أنا أصلي وأصوم ولا أجد من الصلاح ذرة فقال الثالث إن صلاتي ما ترضيني فكيف ترضي ربي فلما حضروا مجلسه قال في أثناء كلامه ومن الناس من يقول فأعاد كلامهم بعينه، وأخذ عنه الشيخ تقي الدين السبكي قرأت على سارة بنت السبكي عن أبيها سماعا قال سمعت أبا الفضل بن عطاء يقول فذكر شيئا من كلامه، وقال الكمال جعفر سمع من الأبرقوهي وقرأ النحو على المحيي الماروني وشارك في الفقه والأدب وصحب المرسي وتكلم على الناس فسارعت عليه العامة وكثير من المتفقهة وكثر أتباعه، قال لنا أبو حيان قال لنا شرف القضاة ابن الربعي قل لنا ابن عطاء يوما أتمرجن لكم قلنا نعم فتكلم بكلام القوم فقلنا له نعم حكيت كلام المرجاني فاستمر قال وقال لي الكمال ابن المكين حكى لي المراكشي قال كنت أصحب فقيرا فحضر إليه ابن الخليلي الوزير يزوره فقال له جاءني ابن عطاء الله فقال لي الليلة ترى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام واجعل بشارتي أن توليني الخطابة بالإسكندرية فمضت الليلة وما رأيت شيئا وقد عزمت على ضربه فلم يزل الفقير يتلطف به حتى عفا عنه. The red bit says: He was one of those who stood upto Shaykh Taqiud-Din Ibn Taymiyya and he was extensive in that so, no mention of the text of the debate. Thus far I can't find the text in Ibn Kathirs bidaya wa nihaya.... you mentioned Ibn Imad - does he record the text of the debate? and does he mention anything about authenticity? any ideas?
apparently imam ibn `aTaAllah's debate with ibn taymiyyah has been reported by major historians [reference needed]. the same article hosted in various places: http://sunnah.org/tasawwuf/scholr25.htm http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/ez/isl/On-Tsw_I.AtaAllah.html ------------------------------------------ a snippet: As for your pronouncement that istighatha or seeking help is forbidden in the Shari`a because it can lead to idolatry, if this is the case, then we ought also to prohibit grapes because they are means to making wine, and to castrate unmarried men because not to do so leaves in the world a means to commit fornication and adultery." At the latter comment both the shaykhs laughed.
