Is there ijma'a on contagious disease?

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by IbnRashid, Jul 5, 2022.

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  1. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    My concern is with this statement of yours:

    "I believe my actions are inline with what I have come to accept from the proofs brought about from both sides, and it is not in rejection of observable correlation (of pathogens and the like), but its in acknowledgement of them but disassociating them as a "direct cause of death or disease."

    What do you mean by "direct cause" of death or disease? Allah is the creator of Life and death. Causes and effects are mere correlation according to muslims.
    So fire is a correlating factor of burning and heat whereas Allah created the fire and heat.

    Keeping the context mentioned above in mind:

    1)Poison is not the true reason why a person dies just like pathogens are not the reason why a person becomes infected and dies.
    2)Likewise knife is not the reason why a person dies.
    *)Poison does not create death.
    *Knife doesnot create death.
    *Likewise pathogens donot create death or disease.

    1)If a person kills a brother with a knife or a poison. Is he accountible according to you?
    If your answer is Yes.
    2) What makes you think that you will not be held responsible for not practising ihtiat after coming to know that "contact" with infected individuals is indeed discovered to be a correlating factor in such a disease just like cyanide and knife is a correlating factor of death or harm?

    What if after killing, the murderer gives the reason "knife or cynaide is NOT the true reason why a person dies". Does saying that evade personal responsibility? Of course not.
    This issue is extremely straight forward. I have no idea why people are getting confused about it. To be honest a muslim would avoid putting a hand in fire despite knowing Allah is the creator of heat and burning. Yet when it comes to a certain disease, some of the muslims become totally irresponsible, giving excuse of predestination for their own personal lapses. One would not put ones hand in fire saying it was predestined and that he is not at fault. He would indeed hold himself responsible. But when it comes to a disease, they would go against all the observed precautionary correlating factors saying its not their fault but it was in their fate. It is true that it was in their fate but you cannot evade your personal responsibility.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  2. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    ( at 1:30:00 onward , explains the difference of means between Asbab and this would vindicate a person from responsibility [from what I understand]).

    Jazakllah Khair my dear brothers for the advice, and verily deen is counselling. I believe my action are inline with what I have come to accept from the proofs brought about from both sides, and it is not in rejection of observable correlation (of pathogens and the like), but its in acknowledgement of them but disassociating them as a "direct cause of death or disease." I would suggest everyone to set out some free time and listen to all 4 videos, and then evaluate my actions. By Allah, It is not from Kibr that I did what I did, I was only doing what I felt was inline with the sunnah, I would not have even put on the gloves had they not insisted (by the way one of the family members was a doctor and he did confess that he had to sign more death certificates in a week than he would normally do in months.)
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  3. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    No answers to the questions raised so why not raise an adhominem attack?
    By the way are you qualified?
    Let's assume you are qualified, if you have the guts address or refute what you find is contradictory to Islamic theology.
    You will never be able to prove it, by the way, is my contention!
    And it is a valid contention based on your previous posts.
    "First the side-track was backbiting and now qualification."
    Next it would be i don't know nuggets or dunkin donuts?
    You are only good at making claims NOT substantiating them.

    You have made broad claims about science (without a qualification), then you implied that people here are adopting the scientist's understanding (Unislamic) of "contagion" which according to them is "material causes have intrinsic properties or power"and not only that, you appeared to have somewhat suggested that people here are adopting something which runs contradictory to islam.

    I also asked how would you prove whether the hadith in question is rejecting a correlating event or correlation when in fact it is affirming it:

    "...O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What about the camels which, when on the sand (desert) look like deers, but when a mangy camel mixes with them they all get infected with mange?" On that Allah s Apostle said, "Then who conveyed the (mange) disease to the first (mangy) camel?"

    Bold is there for emphasis.

    I see you as someone which Imam Al Ghazali Talked about in Tahafut Al Falsifah:

    "Greater harm is done to religion by an immethodical helper than by an enemy whose actions, however, hostile are yet regular. For, as the proverb goes, "a wise enemy is better than an ignorant friend"."
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    a hadith present in bukhari does not mean there is ijmaa on its interpretation.
    only idiots or those ignorant of hadith sciences will make such claims.

    that is immaterial. these are mere ruses to get away. you should not be using the internet as well to communicate. who knows you might be an israeli spy who is trying to cause fitna. what is the proof that you are not an israeli spy? unless you post your passport details here you are unqualified to comment.

    someone anonymous himself taunting another person for being anonymous!
    Tālib ul-Haq likes this.
  5. Noor ul Shaam

    Noor ul Shaam New Member

    The hadith is found everywhere including in bukhari.. they can make rants trying to tell us what Islam says about contagion yet don't know about the hadith or where it is found.
    Are you qualified to debate this issue?

  6. Noor ul Shaam

    Noor ul Shaam New Member

    Are you qualified to debate this issue?

  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    please re-evaluate the appropriateness of your actions in the light of the brother's post below.

    just a friendly advice.
  8. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    I agree with everything you wrote. I would like to stress on one point and expand upon it a bit. We know for a fact that everything happens by the Will of Allah (swt) but that wouldn't absolve the person of the responsibility if he intentionally or deliberately stands infront of a bus and gets killed in the process all the while believing whatever happens is by the will of Allah (swt). It would not absolve him of the responsibility.

    Just like one wouldn't put his hand in a fire even though he knows for a fact that the heat and the burning happens by the Will of Allah (swt). And if he does place it there, it would not absolve him of the responsibility even though if he believes that fire is just a correlating factor of heat and burning Not the real reason.

    Or if he deliberately leaves his walking baby near a fire alone, telling himself that everything happens by will of Allah, and if the baby gets burnt in the process that wouldn't evade him of the responsibility.

    Let me try & give a better example. Cyanide is a poison. And it's ingestion is correlated with mortality. Knowing the creator of life and death is Allah would anyone give his brother this poison to drink? Would that absolve him of the responsibility? What if he argues that poison isn't the reason why the brother died and it was the Will of Allah?
    What he said is correct;"the poison, act of giving poision and drinking poision" is indeed a correlating factor of mortality not the real reason why his brother died BUT We all know that one cannot use predestination as an excuse to ward off responsibility. This is where he gets it wrong.

    On one hand, you have a group of people going to extremes, fearing the virus and NOT Allah.They are the trusting the means, the correlating factors and NOT Allah.

    On the other hand, you have a group of people evading their own personal lapses, rejecting the means, completely ignoring the correlating factors as a reality, and giving excuse of predestination.

    The balance is practising (ihtiat; caution) and putting your trust in Allah. (tie your camel and trust in Allah).

    What compelled me to write what i wrote above is that the majority of awam of Pakistan (not talking about the liberals one finds on twitter; not all of them are though), is taking this whole situation too lightly. They even said "all this corona situation is a fraud" and doctors are deliberately killing patients by injecting poison and diagnosing them as COVID positive.

    Nowadays, the ICU (intensive care units) and HDU (high dependency Units) are full and the same individuals who were once labelling COVID19 as a fraud and what not are now begging doctors to get oxygen for their patients at a "Mun boli" price. But the doctors cannot do anything since all the beds are full.

    What i am trying to highlight is the fact, that although what is to happen will happen according to the decree of Allah and we should completely trust in Him however there does come a degree of responsibility which seems to be a lost case especially for the awaam of Pakistan.

    To be honest, they are also misinformed of the whole issue because our "incompetent" government is only good at making promises NOT KEEPING THEM.

    To give you an example:
    A drug by the name of hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine was shown to be correlated with improved outcomes when given early in COVID-19 patients.

    This drug completely dissappeared from the markets, is not available in most if not all hospitals. Yet i heard in the news they were giving it out as a donation to other friendly countries (USA, CHINA and some others).

    Another example:
    A drug by the name of Tocilizumab is found to be correlated with improved outcomes in severe COVID patients on ventilatory support.

    This drug's price was around 10000 PKR (61.25 USD) for a vial. Now its being sold at 300,000 PKR (1800 USD) in the blackmarkets.

    This is the haal (condition) of us. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
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  9. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Maybe we can dive further into its lexicon , when doctors speak of a "disease" being contagious what I think they mean is "transmission of virus particles , or bacteria, shifting from one place to another." Such pathogen can be transmitted inside a person's body and "possibly" infect and multiply which would then result in symptoms finally resulting in a disease. Merely being positive in having the virus in the body does not mean one has the disease, it means one has the virus (he is a carrier). This technical notion is either a mouthful to state all the time , or is taken for granted given the audience have been taught basic microbiology/ health sciences/and or epistemology in high school or university. Therefore we may have fallen prey to reductionism so need to be a bit more aware of the Etymology of the term "contagion in English and more so 'Adwa in Arabic."

    Where Science and the materialists side with "chance, and or probability," to explain anomalies and or inheritance of occurrence abnormalities, for instance something is either "highly contagious or slightly contagious," for the believers we have full conviction it is all from divine will, but each manifest in the way Allah designed, so it maybe be so that Allah willed a certain disease to be more common and widespread than another.

    Communicable Diseases (bacteria, virus, parasites) [The cause of all the fuss (pun)]

    Can it not be proposed that "bacteria viruses pathogens etc " are contagious, but "diseases" however are not. Disease is the "result", not the cause. Science takes Divine intervention out of the picture, so they stress the cause of disease being bacteria, viruses, or parasites, fungi alone. For the Muslims we easily understand that these are the asbab (means) in the Sunan al kawn , just like your analogy of cure and medicine.

    Because, one only gets the disease when his immune system adopts the pathogen (by the WILL of ALLAH), our health is in the hands of Allah, that includes our immunity , our white and red blood cells, the whole nine yards. It is not incomprehensible that each cell or organ is maintained by an Angel who operates on the will of Allah, same goes for with the movement of each virus wherever it lands, from whatever location and obviously , as emphasized in the hadith, its very existence; which is either ex nihilo ,or hidden and manifested following (sunnan al kawniyya - as in mutation of disease ). Some contagious diseases mutate and become stronger ? Does science know why ? No, because it's random. ".Acquisition of the "disease is not in our hands and we are not accountable for its effect, this includes "carriers" , its totally dependent on how Allah has willed the recipient's immune system to handle it, no measurements beyond available dhanni medication can cure the person, there are always patients who react negatively or unsuccessfully to "known and working medication and vaccines."
    image (1).png
    image (2).png
    What seems to bother people, is holding someone accountable for giving someone the "disease," nowadays they correctly say "passing the virus," but they truly (foolishly) mean disease. Twitter is flooded with such comments, with Divine decree out of the picture, they put themselves in depression by considering themselves at fault for the infected, and or death resulting from their transmission, when life, death and sickness, health only happens by the will of Allah.
    image (3).png

    One group undermines correlation, and the other uses it to overshadow divine will, this dichotomy creates this illusion of conflict, and given most laymen , especially those grown in the anglosphere, suffer from a concrete understanding and acceptance of Qada' and Qadar, it would make sense to give a verdict siding with caution (staying away from infected areas is also sound from the hadith), but they should also definitely emphasize and narrate the actions of sahaba who did mingle and engage with infected individuals, and this action is established in the deen and it is a matter of higher Iman, at the same time this shouldn't discourage people from taking avoiding and keeping distance as that too is what we are told to do, because it's merely a means (regardless of statistical success rates), because as mentioned it will only work if it is Willed so.

    I think giving a balanced verdict should be taken, personally I have mingled with the infected , a family friend lost someone to the virus, I visited their house for condolences (apparently all but one person was positive), the gave me gloves, but that was maybe 10 minutes after, I talked and hugged one of the brothers (who was convinced he was false negative since everyone else was positive), neither me or anyone in my family were infected (through me), and this was a month ago, similarly my brother who hung out with his friend whose family too were infected, yet nothing happened to us Alhamdulillah. If anything does happen (alhamdullilah) and If it doesn't (alhamdulilllah). The idea of "fear of getting the virus, is weak and Imam Al-Tahawi disagrees with that reason, and he leaves to Allah what the real reason is.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it has been mentioned by others as well, and i had shared it with friends, but forgot to post it here.

    imam ibn Hajar mentions in his work on plague that people went out to pray for relief in congregation and after return, far more died. this was said in the context of praying (for succour) in congregration during plague (taa'un) similar to praying for rain; and which he termed it as an innovation (bid'ah).

    even though shaykh al-islam did not intend it, his report actually gives us evidence that it was observed that proximity aggravated the spread of infection (he rejects adwaa as understood in his time).


    bazl al maun, p328.png

    quick translation:

    congregating to pray [for relief from plague] similar to [congregational] prayer for rain [istisqa'a], then it is a [reprehensible] innovation which was first conducted during the great plague of the year 749 AH in damascus.

    i have read in a monograph by manbajji, [where he mentioned] after criticising the people who organised people to assemble in one place, he says that the people prayed shouting loudly; this even was in the year 764 AH, when plague descended in damascus. he [manbajji] mentioned: that in the plague of 49, people went out of the cities in the open fields [or desert], prominent people of the city [went with them] and they prayed and beseeched [dua, istighatha]. but the plague only became worse [i.e. more people became sick and/or died]; and it was lesser prior to their prayer-congregation.

    i [ibn hajar] say: this has happened in our time as well. when the plague first spread in cairo in rabiy al-akhir of the year 827, and then in 833. the people who had died were less than 40.

    so they went out to pray in the desert on the fourth of jumada al-ula. they were asked to fast for three days, similar to the manner of praying for rain [istisqaa] - so they gathered and prayed and tarried for an hour and they returned.

    the month had not passed, but the number of dead in cairo was more than ONE THOUSAND EVERY DAY. thereafter it increased even more.

    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  11. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    Please read post #33 before commenting.
    The following are some thought experiments for those brothers who like to think and use their intellect.

    Imagine a scenario in which we have ward filled with COVID-19 patients. We have 100 volunteers (completely non-infected) and we divide them into two groups (50 volunteers in each group). Group A and Group B. Group A is sent to the ward filled COVID-19 patients and they live there for a week.
    Group B is kept in a seperate room without establishing any sort of contact with COVID-19 patients.

    1) What do we see after a week?
    All the volunteers belonging to Group A got infected with COVID-19 and the volunteers from Group B remained non-infected.

    This experiment is repeated 100 number of times and each time it was observed that the volunteers who established contact with the COVID-19 patients, were infected a week later. Where as those volunteers who didnot establish any contact with the COVID-19 patients DIDNOT get infected.

    2)How would a muslim see or "interpret" such a scenario?
    A muslim would say that Allah has willed it that this should be the outcome of such an experiment. Not only that, Allah has decreed (in such a scenario) that all the volunteers who established contact with COVID 19 patients would be infected and He has decreed those volunteers who didnot establish contact would not be infected*.

    *It was possible for Allah to decree that volunteers who didnot establish contact with the infected COVID-19 patients would be infected and those who established contact would not be infected.
    **It was also possible for Allah to decree that all the volunteers got infected with or without establishing contact with COVID-19 patients.

    But this is not what we observe from such an experiment and what that means is Allah has willed these events the way we observe them. Allah could have willed them otherwise but He didn't. What He has precisely willed, that is precisely the way the flow of events took place.

    3)What is a correlating factor in such an experiment?
    Remember all the volunteers were non-infected initially. The volunteers who established contact with COVID-19 were seen to develop similar symptoms AFTER living with them for 1 week. Establishing contact and living with such patients is a CORRELATING EVENT Which was followed by subsequent events such as development of symptoms and infection in the volunteers.
    In case of non-infected volunteers, they didnot get infected. "Not establishing contact with the infected COVID-19 patients" is a correlating event.

    4) What happens when one denies a correlating event in such a scenario?
    This entails denial of observed reality, the experiment and judgement of a muslim.
    The person is denying the flow of events (The volunteers establishing contact and living with COVID-19 patients) followed by another event (i.e. the development of symptoms). He is affirming this is not the way events occured or flowed.
    In otherwords, what he is trying to say is Allah has not decreed the flow of events (contact and living with infected COVID-19 patients for 1 week) followed by another event i.e. development of symptoms.
    He is denying the existence of such subsequent flow of events and that entails denial of observed reality.
    The two events did happen ONE AFTER ANOTHER.

    Not only that he is trying to place, the two groups in the same bucket i.e. The event "Establishing contact with COVID19 patients" is EQUAL TO the event "Not establishing contact with COVID 19 patients" and that is absurd because the two events are completely opposite to each other and they are indeed different.

    And if someone affirms the existence of all events without attributing any efficacy to them and stating that everything happens by the will of Allah and the ways these events occur is subject to His Will and Power, then he has established what we were trying to prove in the first place.
  12. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    With vaccines they use an attenuated (let's say decapitated) pathogen so that it triggers an immune response in the body. They inject the attenuated pathogen inside the body. According to them scientists, it is the attenuated pathogen which invokes an immune response.
    According to muslims, attenuated pathogen is associated (correlated) with an increase in immune response. None of this could happen without Allah willing it.

    Pathogens Do ENTER the body. This is observed. Example bacteria in blood using non-hygenic/dirty hypodermic needles.
    Another example can be such as a scraping off an infected wound, followed by rubbing on a non-infected wound is associated with increase number of same bacteria (flora) in the non-infected wound.

    What we as muslims should believe is this "scraping off" from an infected wound followed by rubbing on the non-infected wound and increase in bacterial growth in the non-infected wound cannot take place without Allah willing it and bringing it into existence. Scraping and rubbing from infected wound is merely a correlation of non-infected wound getting infected not the reason why it got infected in the first place. These are mere events tied together. It was rationally possible that the wound did not get infected in the first place. It depends on what Allah (swt) wills. However, If the scraper did it deliberately he is mukkalaf.

    NOTE: That doesn't mean one shouldn't go for vaccines. One should go for vaccines believing and hoping that he will be cured by the Will of Allah.
    Just like one eats or drinks knowing satiety and removal of thirst is not BY food or water but Created By Allah.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2020
  13. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Doc, isn't the thing with vaccines that they (correlatively per Ahlus Sunnah) trigger the immune system to prepare itself against foreign pathogens? That pre-supposes that pathogens can enter the body to infect it in the first place.
  14. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    Who told you what science has proven?
    Do you want articles from Pubmed?
    Do you realize you are talking to a medical doctor here?
    Science believes and holds this to be true by all means that the disease in one person is the reason why disease occurs in another person. Scientists attribute efficacy to created causes such as medicines, diseases and what not.

    This is what we muslims disagree about the scientists. To us muslims it is all a correlation.

    Do you understand what a correlation is?
    Let's take an example of Two people (A and B) sitting next to each other and have a disease X. Let's assume A was the one who got infected First.

    It is our belief (the ahlus sunnah wal jammah) that Allah is the one who created the disease X both in A and in B. A is not the reason "why" B got infected.

    1) How does this run contrary to Islam?
    2) How does claiming that "A is a prior correlating event of B, and is Not the reason why disease began to exist" in B runs contrary to Islam?

    As far as the understanding of the beduins go, the prophet was right to reject their belief because the disease from the infected camel is NOT the reason why the healthy camel got infected.

    4)How will you prove that this particular hadith is denying a correlating event as well when in fact it is affirming a correlating event (i.e. who infected the first)?
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i asked him whether there was an ijmaa on the understanding of the hadith. but he headed to dublin and from there went to reykjavik.
  16. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As Salaamu Àlaykum Wa RahmatulLah,

    What is your source on the narration regarding the camel and the Bedouins?
  17. Noor ul Shaam

    Noor ul Shaam New Member

    Science proves person A and B both have the disease not that one caught it from the other, as for observation then that was the same thing what the Bedouins thought with respect the healthy camel's catching the disease from the sick camel's but The Prophet of Allah peace and blessings be upon Him rejected that belief. If you feel you know better then please step up and debate this out following the rules of munazara.
    I must be careful how I respond on here I’ve already been threatened to be removed for calling someone else out.
  18. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member

    This is strange. Very strange.
    This is what i said:

    (How does any of what I wrote below falls under the realm of backbiting?)

    1) Is the person being mentioned, denying "transmission" of disease from infected person to the non-infected one i.e. in the sense it is the disease within the infected person which brings into existence the disease in the non-infected individual.?

    If yes, then he is correct. Because in Islam everything happens by the Will of Allah. Created causes have no intrinsic power to bring about effects. Allah (swt) is the creator of causes and effects.


    2) Is the person denying the "correlation" between the infected person and the non-infected person?
    If yes, then he is incorrect. And this entails denial of observed reality as well. The notion that non-infected person got infected from the infected person (A correlation) by the Will of Allah is not problematic. The infected person in this case is merely a correlation. Nothing more. Infected person is not the reason why the disease began to exist in the non-infected individual.
    Similar to a certain"medicine" being a correlation of the "cure" when in fact it is Allah who created the medicine as well as the cure.
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Two videos in favor of opening up the lockdowns:

  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Documentary (posted an year ago) on the Spanish Flu of 1918 - worth watching for some perspective and correlation with current world situation.

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