Jumu'ah in Haramayn

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by shahnawazgm, Feb 13, 2023.

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  1. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    I haven't come across a single sunni masjid anywhere in the haramain. Maybe someone who lives there may know better.
  2. Ikhwaan

    Ikhwaan New Member

    What about in AlMadinah AlMunawwarah?
  3. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Also if you are within the boundaries of the Haram then the only place for jamaat will be masjid ul haram. Once you go there you will see that even the hotels and nearby streets in the area have live audio (and video in most cases) of live prayers and people just continue praying in jamaat with the imam of the kaaba (sharayi validity is another issue). All the streets approaching the kaaba will be blocked off for traffic by the police with people simply putting their prayer mats wherever they find space.

    Especially for Jummah if you want to be inside the masjid then you need to reach there a couple of hours before. What I used to do was repeat my prayers after the jamaat was over!

    P. S. If you go there and happen to hear a guy giving an urdu lecture in the masjid in some area then walk as far as possible in the opposite direction until you don't hear a word!
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2023
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    essentially yes in a general sense, as all mosques are controlled by the ministry of religious affairs. some Sunni might be appointed to some select mosque either by fluke or deliberate and calculated appeasement of Sunnis to not incite dissent or monitor public opinion etc.

    in the case of Haramayn and other important masajid at ziyarah's like Quba, Khayf, Nimrah, Qiblatayn, etc., for sure

    ever since the kingdom has been established, no imam of the 2 Holy Mosques has been from the Hijaz or eastern province - only hard core najdis from the heart of najd

    people of Hijaz don't like the ruling najdi elites, at every level, religious, social, political, deeni, worldly etc. even if they may just be common folk and not be aware of Sunni wahabi differences. maybe this inherent gut feeling based dislike of najdis is a blessing of the Prophet 3alaihis salam and the sahaba having blessed that land with their blessed presence
  5. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    So is it a case that the najdis choose the imams for every masjid (maybe a governmental responsibility) so the sunni congregations are essentially prayer rooms or schools etc?
  6. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Sorry, I don't have the exact location as someone else took me. The way we went was asked a taxi to take us to the madrasa. The Alawi's are pretty well known in Makkah.
  7. Ikhwaan

    Ikhwaan New Member

    Do you have a google maps location and name of the place?

    Also is there anything similar in Madinah Sahreef?
  8. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Note correction- the exception is in both Fatawa Sharih Bukhari and Waqar al-Fatawa
    but the ghalib hukm is its invalid
  9. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    It is 4 km from the Haram, you will need to take a cab. Been there once, more so a madrasa than a dedicated masjid. Sometimes the main gate might be closed so you will need to knock to get in!
  10. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    There is a sunni masjid run by sayyid ahmad ibn muhammad ibn alawi you can go to in makkah al mukarramah
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2023
  11. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Answer is an emphatic no.

    Salah behind Najdi imams generally is patently invalid as they are those who call us mushrik and do takfir of our ulama (cough, cough Sudais et. al) and/or who insult RasulAllah ﷺ and/or the Sahaba and Ahl al-Bayt radhiyallahu anhum ajma'in. It is not just makruh (be it tanzihi or tahrimi).

    In Fatwa Sharih Bukhari 3/234 and on p. 239, Waqar al-Fatawa 1:284 and Ma’rif Sharih Bukhari p 914, ed Raza Academy Mumbai you can also see this. The reference from Waqar al Fatawa also states all Deobandi (or Najdi) scholars know of the disbelief but if there is a Deobandi (or Najdi) scholar who hypothetically is unaware of the issues, it is prohibitively disliked. The overwhelming hukm is that it is invalid and this statement in Fatawa Sharih Bukhari and Waqar al-Fatawa is hypothetical only and an exception.


    Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif 6:441, 6:90 Qadim (Raza Academy Mumbai), 8:440; see also Ma’arif Sharih Bukhari, page 914, Raza Academy, Mumbai;

    From Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif 6:441

    جب صور ت ایسی ہو تو مسلمانوں پر فرض ہے کہ کسی مسلمان صالح امامت کو اپنا امام مقرر کریں اس کے پیچھے جمعہ و عیدین پڑھیں ، جمعہ قائم کرنے کے لئے اگر کوئی مسجد بنائیں تو اذن عام مسلمین واشتہار کے ساتھ کسی میدان خواہ مکان میں پڑھیں اور اگر اس پر قدرت نہ ہو اور سب مساجد کے امام دیوبندی یا وہابی یا غیرمقلد یا نیچری یا مرزائی وغیر ہم مرتدین ہیں تو فرض ہے کہ ظہر تنہا تنھا پڑھیں ان لوگوں کے پیچھے نماز باطل محض ہے جیسے کسی بت پرست یا آریہ کے پیچھے یہ ترکِ جمعہ نہ ہوا کہ وہ جو پڑھ رہے ہیں لغو و باطل حرکت ہے نمازہی نہیں، اور ان کی اقتداء بوجوہ حرام قطعی ہے بلکہ ان کے عقائد پر مطلع ہو کر پھر بھی انھیں قابل امامت جانے تو کافر ہوجائے

    "من شک فی کفرہ وعذابہ فقد کفر"( جس نے اس کے کفر اور عذاب میں شک کیا اس نے کفر کیا ) ہاں اگر کہیں ایسا بدمذہب ہو جس پر حکم کفر نہیں جیسے تفضیلیہ، اور سنی کی امامت نہ مل سکے تو اس کے پیچھے جمعہ و عیدین پڑھ لے۔( جلد 8 صفحہ 440)۔_*

    Also see Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif (qadim): ’’جو جو اس امام کی حالت سے آگاہ تھے سب ترک فرض نماز جنازہ کے مرتکب و مستحق عذاب رہے۔ جب کہ خود وہابی یا وہابیہ کو صالح امامت جاننے والے نہ ہوں ورنہ بالاتفاق علمائے حرمین شریفین کا فتوی ہو چکا ہے کہ ’’من شك فی کفرہ و عذابه فقد کفر‘‘ جو وہابی کے کفر میں شک کرے خود کافر ہے۔ ( فتاوی رضویہ، قدیم جلد: ٤، صفحہ ۱۲، رضا اکیڈمی ممب

    also see the following texts - Imam Ahmad Rida writes:

    کوئی ایسا نہ رہا جس کی بدعت کفر سے گری ہوئی ہو خواہ غیر مقلد ہو یا بظاہر مقلّد نسأل اﷲ العفو والعافیۃ(ہم اﷲ تعالٰی سے معافی اور عافیت کو سوال کرتے ہیں۔ت) نماز اس کے پیچھے مکروہ تحریمی ہے اور جو اس حد تک پہنچ گئی توا قتدا اس کی اصلاً صحیح نہیں۔]

    The Imam writes also بہت لوگ ہیں ازانجملہ غیرمقلدین اور رافضی اور وُہ وہابی جن کی بدعت حدِکفر تک پہنچی ہے،سیدنا امام اعظم رضی اﷲ تعالٰی عنہ فرماتے ہیں:الصلٰوۃ خلف اھل الھواء لاتجوز (اہل ہواء کے پیچھے نماز جائز نہیں۔ت)

    The Imam also writes غیر مقلد وہابی دیوبندی سب اسلام سے خارج ہیں اور ان کے پیچھے نماز باطل محض والتفصیل فی حسام الحرمین والنھی الاکید وغیرھما(اور اس مسئلہ کی تفصیل حسام الحرمین اور النہی الاکید وغیرہ میں ہے۔ت) واﷲ سبحٰنہ و تعالٰی اعلم۔
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2023
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    now there are blind muqallideen of ibn taymiyyah who have refused to pray behind the imams of the Haramayn, for kowtowing to najdi royalty on matters of modernization and normalization of ties with zionists.
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    If you are a not a muqeem in harmayn sharif (which is usually the case during hajj/umrah), then jumuah is not fard for you; in that case you can excuse yourself and offer dhuhr instead.

    If you are a muqeem, then the onus is on you to find a congregation with a sunni imam. If there's not a single congregation with sunni imam, then you can either choose to offer jumuah behind fasiq/najdi with karahat (and repeat dhuhr) or not offer jumuah at all. I reckon the latter would be preferable.
  14. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Where can someone following the standard hanafi position of not praying behind innovators pray jumu'ah in Makkah and Madinah? Wonder if all the historic masaajid in the area have najdi imams?
    uk7866 likes this.

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