just another makan?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AbdalQadir, May 26, 2014.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    FR 30:648

  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    You should ask mufti sahab.

    Note: in his speech mufti sahab is contradicting the fundamental aqidah which he himself stated at 13:46. He said;
    then later he says;
    This is paradoxical, does he believe that RasulAllah alaihi afDalus salatu wasalam is wajib al wujud or anything that has a nisbah with RasulAllah is wajib al wujud?
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
  3. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Mufti Sahib also said:

    I'm curious which scholars of aqida expressed this same view...
  4. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Don't shoot the naaqil. I'm not referring to that Pir Zahid Shah Tafzili. Mufti Zahid Hussain from Preston UK does not take murids as far as I know nor is he a pir (though I may be wrong on this). He did, however, receive khilafat from Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan ('Alaihi Rahmah).
  5. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    If this is his belief then he has not read even the basic texts of kalam, tell him to read umm al barahin and at least al mutaqad al muntaqad to know what is ala hazrat's aqidah.

    it is from badihiyaat (Self-evident things that do not require any proof) that a body cannot be free from space.

    poetry is different from the explicit fatwa, read munabeh al munhiyyah by ala hazrat alaihi rahmah to know what was his aqidah, poetry can be explained that reconciles with aqidah and kalam.

    How will you prove that Allah does not have a jism, if a body can exist without space?

    and unfortunately, you have crossed the limits saying that
    so, you are saying that since sayed zahid hussain holds a nisbat towards RasulAllah aliahi afDalus salat wat-talseem; therefore, he can be free from time and space with his clothes and boots too. al-iy'adhu billah.

    edit: I was told that this is not pir sayed zahid hussain of UK, but the question still holds true for sadaat-e-kiram and for any nisbat you can imagine.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  6. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Maulana @abu Hasan ,

    Mufti Zahid Hussain Qadri Azhari mentioned in a back 2 basics aqidah class at 14:20, the references he gives are some lines of poetry from the poems of Alahazrat:

    On the night of Mi'raj, Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala gave the Prophet Muhammad () such elevation that on Sidratul Muntaha Jibril Alaihis Salaam said to the Prophet Muhammad () that I cannot go further than this. Everybody's heard that before? One narration says that if I go further than this, my wings will burn, hain na?

    What does that mean? What it means is that ya RasulAllah (), this is Sidratul Muntaha, meaning this is the end, this is the intiha of time and place. Above this there is no time and place. And I am mumkin al wujood, my existence is possible and thus I am bound with time and space, I cannot go beyond time and space. This is what Jibril Alaihis Salaam meant. And the Prophet Muhammad (), although he was other than Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala, he went beyond. Hain na? He went beyond and left time and space.

    The Messenger of Allah () was elevated so high, that the philosophers, they were confused, they didn't understand, because they always debated and argued and discussed that mumkin al wujood is bound by time and space, cannot exist without time and space and here the Prophet Muhammad () is showing them that if Allah Wills then mumkin al wujood may also leave time and space.

    And what I believe, the Prophet Muhammad ()'s clothes and the mat that he sat on which took him above time and space, that was going with the Prophet (), which means that anything that has nisba with the Prophet (ﷺ), can also leave time and space.

    And due to that I also believe, that if the Messenger of Allah () wished and took the hand of Jibril and said come, then he would have took Jibril Alaihis Salaam as well.

    And this is where Imam Ahmad Raza Radi Allahu Ta'ala Anho says:

    ke mumkin mein yeh qudrat kahan?

    Ya RasulAllah you are mumkin and how do you posses such power to leave time and space?

    waajib mein abdiyyat kahan?

    And Ya RasulAllah and if I say you are wajibul wujood then abdiyyat kahan? You worship Allah, He who is wajibul wujood doesn't worship anybody. So if I call you mumkin then how do you possess such power, and if I call you waajib, how is it that you are worshipping Allah?

    hayran hun yeh bhi hain khataa, yeh bhi nahin woh bhi nahin

    He says that: I am astonished that even this is a mistake for me to say ya RasulAllah you are neither mumkin you are neither waajib.

    So this is something that shows the Status of the Prophet Muhammad () that no other had received. And Imam Ahmad Raza also says [17:22]:

    khirad se keh do sar jhuka le

    Khirad means the intellect. He's saying tell the intellect that when the Prophet Muhammad () left time and space, when [he] surpassed Sidratul Muntaha, he says at that time to the philosophers those with intellect, tell your intellect sar jhuka le - lower your head.

    gumaan say guzray guzarnay walay

    The one who is passing by, meaning the Prophet Muhammad (), he has left the space for gumaan - gumaan means to think.

    padey hain yahan khud jihat ko laalay kisay bataaye kidhar gaye they

    There was no time and space there, and because there was no time and space we can't even use the word 'where' because 'where' needs space. So we can't even say where he went. We can't even say how he went. Because when we say how we need space to demonstrate an action that expresses the manner of going. So how, ila, fa ila, where, to, from - all of these words we can't even use them because there was no time and space there.

    In response to a question at 40:00 he says:

    We do not believe the Prophet Muhammad () is waajibul wujood. We believe the Prophet Muhammad () is from amongst the mumkin al wujood and he is a creation of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

    What we do believe is that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala did give the Prophet Muhammad () the power to leave time and space and this is the belief that the majority of the Ahlus Sunnah wa'l Jamaah scholars hold, the sufiya-e-kiraam hold. There are Ulama who have not accepted that the Prophet Muhammad () left time and space. But the belief Imam Ahmad Raza Radi Allahu Anho held was that the Prophet Muhammad () did leave time and space. What that shows to us is that Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala does have the Power to take something that is mumkin al wujood into laa makaan and laa zamaan - meaning Allah can give us existence without time and space, okay? If Allah Wills then Allah has that Power.

    Is it how mufti Sahib describes. that the majority of Ahlus Sunnah's and Alahazrat's belief is that the Messenger of Allah () left time and space on the night of Mi'raj?

    jazak Allah khair
  7. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    I would say left the Alamin. ie left makan
  8. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    Never heard about family. But yes lamakaan was the Miraj and Allah Ta'ala is free of time direction all types of limitations and place.

    sorry if worded poorly but this is my understanding. We await a thorough or more concise response from our learned brothers here. May Allah Ta'ala reward them for their untiring work which serves as guidance for people like myself.

    also these types of doubts are regularly and routinely spread by mubtadi people
  9. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

    Many of the awaam seem to have the belief that the prophet peace be upon him and his family entered La Makan on Mi'raj and went beyond time and place .

    What is the ruling on this ?
  10. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    In al-Mustanad al-Mu'tamad, Sayyidi Alahazrat (may Allah be pleased with him) gives preference to the opinion that the روح is جوهر مجرد rather than جسم لطيف. He also mentions a risala of his entitled بارقة تلوح من حقيقة الروح. Is this risala available?
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  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is no need to inquire in these things, nor required to be understood.

    surah al-isra'a, 17:85


    extract from imam razi's tafsir:


    those sound and firm in their sunni aqidah can read ibn qayyim's 'kitab al-ruH' for more perspectives and lots of useful information.

    alahazrat's munabbih al-munyah touches on some aspects (and has been mentioned earlier)


    sharh hamziyyah of ibn Hajar al-haytami that alahazrat has quoted:


    sharH hamziyyah of sulayman jamal (futuHat al-ahmadiyyah)

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  12. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    JazakAllahu khayra. Much appreciated.

    This then leads to some further questions:

    1. The ruh is a creation and is therefore haadith. So how can it go beyond the boundaries of time and space?

    2. On the night of Miraj, did time stop? Did the miracle not take place outside of the boundaries of time?

    3. Is it possible for there to be a dimension beyond time and space that is still bound by boundaries and limits other than time and space; boundaries which are not known to man (and hence such a dimension would still be haadith, due to being limited, but limited in way that is beyond human intellect)?
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is right.

    else how will you explain these verses?

    surat qaaf, 50:16


    surat baqarah 2:186


    surat al-waqi'ah 56:85

    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    la makan is not another makan. it just means that it is beyond space and time (and imagination).

    anything that is not qadim IS necessarily bound by space and time.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  15. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    Dear Shaykh Abu Hasan, I would highly appreciate if you can help clarify some issues?

    Is laa makaan a creation (makhlooq)?

    Is it something that exists, or just the absence of something?

    Does laa makaan necessarily also mean laa zamaan?

    Is everything that is not Qadeem necessarily bound by time and space?
  16. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As Salāmu ʿAlaykum,

    Just to make sure my understanding is correct: قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ or 'at a distance of two bows lengths' (Al-Qur'ān al Karīm, 53:9) isn't indicating an actual place, as Allāh (ʿAzza Wa Jall) is free from this, but it is an expression used to indicate closeness by way of obedience?
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    oh! i had not listened to hazrat taj'ush shari'yah's reply above, he clearly says that it is not mustah'il for ruh' to exist without space.

    mi'raaj sharif mubarak to all the brothers.
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    i am still a bit confused about it. i asked an alim bout mairaj sharif and he appeared to believe that rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem ascended from arsh with his body and left makaan behind, he didn't know about this risalah of ala hazrat alaihi rahmah wa riDwan. Also, it confuses me that when Allah subhan'u wa ta'ala first created the noor of rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem then there was no space, because the noor or haqiqat-e-muhammadiyyah is the first creation, so it means that creation can exist without space.
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
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  19. Musafir

    Musafir Active Member

    As 27th of Rajab nears can anyone shed more light on the answer given by Huzur Taj us Shar'iah may Allah preserve him regarding the rooh space and time
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    jazakAllah for the reply. It will be nice if someone sheds light on the istilahat too.


    I meant the attributes under discussion and not overall. lest it be misunderstood. Astaghfirullah!


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