just another makan?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Feb 10, 2024.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a different question.

    one does not have to be present in the sky to see the sky. this is one of the meanings of the hadith: "you will see your Lord Almighty like you would see [the full moon] without any difficulty". [hadith of bukhari does not mention moon explicitly, but: "as you would see this" - indicating towards the moon].

    this doesn't mean you have to be on the moon to see the moon. conversely, Allah ta'ala existence is not dependent in a "place" to be seen.
    this comparison is in the ability of the one who sees - not a similitude for that which/who is seen.

    also, this doesn't mean that Allah ta'ala will be at a distance or that one's sight can encompass Him or any of those attributes of creation; rather, it means that the 'seeing' will be physical - just as you would see the moon.

    as for "crossing over" into wara-al-wara'a or "beyond the farthest limit" - it does not have to be with the body or its limits.
    so 'Divine Vision' - and 'going further' are two different concepts.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Abdullah Ahmed and HASSAN like this.
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    So was the divine vision with the body or the soul?
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this answer was in the context of ajsaam - bodies.
    however, there are 'things' which are created/creation but are free from occupying space. thoughts. emotions. faith. souls.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  4. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    I’m still confused on this topic.

    From what I gathered in this thread is that there are two view points:

    1. The blessed body of Sayidunna Rasul ﷺ remained in the makan, while his blessed Ruh e Mubarak went beyond the makan and saw Allah SubHan Wata’la as stated in the video by Mufti Monawwar Ateeq and Huzoor Taj Al-Shariah.

    2. Creation is limited by time and space. All of creation is within the makan. Therefore, it can be said that Sayidunna Rasul ﷺ was brought to an exalted place, the edges or furthest point of the makan, where no other creation ever went and saw Allah SubHan Wata’la. However, we do not ask how this can occur, just that it is possible.

    Please correct me if me if I’m wrong.

    Of the two points, which is the stronger opinion? Can we accept either one?

    JazakAllah Khair
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    baalaa e arsh does not mean laa makaan, can be translated to "on top of the throne"

    shayk abdul haq's ibarat also clearly says "taa hadd e lamakaan", which can also be translated to "to the limit of the space", then there is only Allah Subhanu wa Ta'ala (bila kaif wa aina).

    no vocabulary can accurately or even nearly accurately describe this mu'jizah.
    Ali_Bash and Aqdas like this.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    … في ’’ تکمیل الإیمان ‘‘ ، ص ۱۲۸: ( ومعراجہ في الیقظۃ بشخصہ إلی السماء، ثم إلی ما شاء اللّٰہ تعالٰی حق ) امتحان ایمان در تصدیق قضیہ معراج است کہ در ساعت لطیف در بیداری بجسد شرف تا آسمان وعرش عظیم بلکہ بالای عرش تا حد لامکان بآن حکایات وخصوصیات مذکورہ کہ در احادیث صحیحہ واقع شدہ )۔

    یعنی: بیداری کی حالت میں جسمانی طور پر آسمان کی طرف معراج فرمانا، پھر وہاں سے جہاں تک خدا کی مشیت ہوجانا حق ہے، مطلب یہ کہ واقعہ معراج کی تصدیق میں ایمان کا امتحان ہے کہ مختصر سی گھڑی میں بیداری کے عالم میں جسم شریف کے ساتھ آسمان وعرش اعظم تک بلکہ عرش سے بھی اوپر حدلامکان تک تشریف لے جانایہ حکایات و خصوصیات احادیث صحیحہ میں مذکور ہیں ۔
  9. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Imam Amjad Ali Azmi says baalaa e Arsh.

    حضور (صلی اﷲ تعالیٰ علیہ وسلم) کے خصائص سے معراج ہے، کہ مسجد ِحرام سے مسجدِ اقصیٰ تک (1) اور وہاں سے ساتوں آسمان (2) اور کُرسی و عرش تک، بلکہ بالائے عرش (3) رات کے ایک خفیف حصّہ میں مع جسم تشریف لے گئے(4)
  10. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    If Shaykh Abu Hasan can summarise the issue of RasulAllah ﷺ not going into la makan in Urdu, it can be shared. It seems the issue is very misunderstood.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2023
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    FR 30:648

  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    You should ask mufti sahab.

    Note: in his speech mufti sahab is contradicting the fundamental aqidah which he himself stated at 13:46. He said;
    then later he says;
    This is paradoxical, does he believe that RasulAllah alaihi afDalus salatu wasalam is wajib al wujud or anything that has a nisbah with RasulAllah is wajib al wujud?
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2022
  13. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Mufti Sahib also said:

    I'm curious which scholars of aqida expressed this same view...
  14. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Don't shoot the naaqil. I'm not referring to that Pir Zahid Shah Tafzili. Mufti Zahid Hussain from Preston UK does not take murids as far as I know nor is he a pir (though I may be wrong on this). He did, however, receive khilafat from Mufti Akhtar Raza Khan ('Alaihi Rahmah).
  15. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    If this is his belief then he has not read even the basic texts of kalam, tell him to read umm al barahin and at least al mutaqad al muntaqad to know what is ala hazrat's aqidah.

    it is from badihiyaat (Self-evident things that do not require any proof) that a body cannot be free from space.

    poetry is different from the explicit fatwa, read munabeh al munhiyyah by ala hazrat alaihi rahmah to know what was his aqidah, poetry can be explained that reconciles with aqidah and kalam.

    How will you prove that Allah does not have a jism, if a body can exist without space?

    and unfortunately, you have crossed the limits saying that
    so, you are saying that since sayed zahid hussain holds a nisbat towards RasulAllah aliahi afDalus salat wat-talseem; therefore, he can be free from time and space with his clothes and boots too. al-iy'adhu billah.

    edit: I was told that this is not pir sayed zahid hussain of UK, but the question still holds true for sadaat-e-kiram and for any nisbat you can imagine.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  16. Ashrafi1

    Ashrafi1 New Member

    Maulana @abu Hasan ,

    Mufti Zahid Hussain Qadri Azhari mentioned in a back 2 basics aqidah class at 14:20, the references he gives are some lines of poetry from the poems of Alahazrat:

    On the night of Mi'raj, Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala gave the Prophet Muhammad () such elevation that on Sidratul Muntaha Jibril Alaihis Salaam said to the Prophet Muhammad () that I cannot go further than this. Everybody's heard that before? One narration says that if I go further than this, my wings will burn, hain na?

    What does that mean? What it means is that ya RasulAllah (), this is Sidratul Muntaha, meaning this is the end, this is the intiha of time and place. Above this there is no time and place. And I am mumkin al wujood, my existence is possible and thus I am bound with time and space, I cannot go beyond time and space. This is what Jibril Alaihis Salaam meant. And the Prophet Muhammad (), although he was other than Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala, he went beyond. Hain na? He went beyond and left time and space.

    The Messenger of Allah () was elevated so high, that the philosophers, they were confused, they didn't understand, because they always debated and argued and discussed that mumkin al wujood is bound by time and space, cannot exist without time and space and here the Prophet Muhammad () is showing them that if Allah Wills then mumkin al wujood may also leave time and space.

    And what I believe, the Prophet Muhammad ()'s clothes and the mat that he sat on which took him above time and space, that was going with the Prophet (), which means that anything that has nisba with the Prophet (ﷺ), can also leave time and space.

    And due to that I also believe, that if the Messenger of Allah () wished and took the hand of Jibril and said come, then he would have took Jibril Alaihis Salaam as well.

    And this is where Imam Ahmad Raza Radi Allahu Ta'ala Anho says:

    ke mumkin mein yeh qudrat kahan?

    Ya RasulAllah you are mumkin and how do you posses such power to leave time and space?

    waajib mein abdiyyat kahan?

    And Ya RasulAllah and if I say you are wajibul wujood then abdiyyat kahan? You worship Allah, He who is wajibul wujood doesn't worship anybody. So if I call you mumkin then how do you possess such power, and if I call you waajib, how is it that you are worshipping Allah?

    hayran hun yeh bhi hain khataa, yeh bhi nahin woh bhi nahin

    He says that: I am astonished that even this is a mistake for me to say ya RasulAllah you are neither mumkin you are neither waajib.

    So this is something that shows the Status of the Prophet Muhammad () that no other had received. And Imam Ahmad Raza also says [17:22]:

    khirad se keh do sar jhuka le

    Khirad means the intellect. He's saying tell the intellect that when the Prophet Muhammad () left time and space, when [he] surpassed Sidratul Muntaha, he says at that time to the philosophers those with intellect, tell your intellect sar jhuka le - lower your head.

    gumaan say guzray guzarnay walay

    The one who is passing by, meaning the Prophet Muhammad (), he has left the space for gumaan - gumaan means to think.

    padey hain yahan khud jihat ko laalay kisay bataaye kidhar gaye they

    There was no time and space there, and because there was no time and space we can't even use the word 'where' because 'where' needs space. So we can't even say where he went. We can't even say how he went. Because when we say how we need space to demonstrate an action that expresses the manner of going. So how, ila, fa ila, where, to, from - all of these words we can't even use them because there was no time and space there.

    In response to a question at 40:00 he says:

    We do not believe the Prophet Muhammad () is waajibul wujood. We believe the Prophet Muhammad () is from amongst the mumkin al wujood and he is a creation of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

    What we do believe is that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala did give the Prophet Muhammad () the power to leave time and space and this is the belief that the majority of the Ahlus Sunnah wa'l Jamaah scholars hold, the sufiya-e-kiraam hold. There are Ulama who have not accepted that the Prophet Muhammad () left time and space. But the belief Imam Ahmad Raza Radi Allahu Anho held was that the Prophet Muhammad () did leave time and space. What that shows to us is that Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala does have the Power to take something that is mumkin al wujood into laa makaan and laa zamaan - meaning Allah can give us existence without time and space, okay? If Allah Wills then Allah has that Power.

    Is it how mufti Sahib describes. that the majority of Ahlus Sunnah's and Alahazrat's belief is that the Messenger of Allah () left time and space on the night of Mi'raj?

    jazak Allah khair
  17. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Well-Known Member

    I would say left the Alamin. ie left makan
  18. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Well-Known Member

    Never heard about family. But yes lamakaan was the Miraj and Allah Ta'ala is free of time direction all types of limitations and place.

    sorry if worded poorly but this is my understanding. We await a thorough or more concise response from our learned brothers here. May Allah Ta'ala reward them for their untiring work which serves as guidance for people like myself.

    also these types of doubts are regularly and routinely spread by mubtadi people
  19. Abū Dharr

    Abū Dharr New Member

    Many of the awaam seem to have the belief that the prophet peace be upon him and his family entered La Makan on Mi'raj and went beyond time and place .

    What is the ruling on this ?
  20. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    In al-Mustanad al-Mu'tamad, Sayyidi Alahazrat (may Allah be pleased with him) gives preference to the opinion that the روح is جوهر مجرد rather than جسم لطيف. He also mentions a risala of his entitled بارقة تلوح من حقيقة الروح. Is this risala available?
    Unbeknown likes this.

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