just another makan?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abu Hasan, Feb 10, 2024.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have not seen this in any text; if anyone has a reference, please forward.

    however, in the risalah of alahazrat linked below, (munabbih al-munyah) there is a passage that is highly figurative, which can be potentially misinterpreted; the citation below by unbeknown is a mistranslation, though the english translator has followed the urdu translation which has inserted the "la makan" in context of alahazrat's quote earlier.

    but in the arabic - nasim ar riyad - there is no mention of "la makan".

    i will try to explain alahazrat's comment, in-sha'Allah.

    Attached Files:

  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    no, actually that too may not be true; because, firstly demarcation is not possible; and secondly, that is the limit for jibreel alaihi salaam and many other angles. It is found in mairaj sharif narrations that when radulAllah proceeded from sidrah he saw a pious man of his ummah in clouds of noor. And it is also found that some angles bring Allah's command to the sidrah for other angles. Therefore sidrah is not a demarcation of makan and la-makan and there can never be any such boundary. Sidi aH can confirm if i have said it correctly, or correct otherwise.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    the problem was:
    this has nothing to do with the one who sees.

    all muslims will see Allah ta'ala in paradise, and that will also be without modality. neither will all muslims have to go into this "la makan" to see the Lord Almighty.

    the point is that, muslims stay in makan [paradise] and see Allah ta'ala who is transcendent from space.

    how? we don't know. we know that ru'yah [Divine Vision] affirmed by saHiH Hadith; the mu'tazilah tried to understand this, and when intelligence failed to comprehend the modality - they rejected that it is possible.* sunnis said: 'we hear and we obey' and did not pursue a rational explanation, but affirmed ru'yat - vision - without modality.

    is Allah ta'ala a number? [al-iyadhu billah]

    then why do you say He is One?

    imam a'azam clarified this in fiqh al-akbar, "we do not say One to denote that He is a number [ma'adh-Allah] but to negate that there is another."

    similarly "la makan" is not some kind of a special 'space' but a negation, to say that He is transcendent from space.

    la sharik does not mean a special kind of partner, al-iyadhu billah.

    *of course, they cited the verse of surah an'am 6:103 to prove that vision is not possible - but this was cited only to prove their premise.
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  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Here's an extract from Munabbih al-Munyah bi Wusool al-Habib ila al-Arshi wa ar-Ru'yah:

    20. It is noted in the same book:

    The units of Sahih Ahadith emphasize that the Master (SallAllahu Alayhi wa Sallam) visited Jannah and the Arsh or the boundaries of that region beyond which lies the extra-terrestrial domain (La-Makaan). This all happened physically and in wakefulness. [Naseem ar-Riyadh, Vol. 2, Page 310]
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    this is the exact question I had asked the Mufti sahib I have spoken of above and he quoted the verse I have quoted above and then himself posed the question that I did - then answered it himself - a tashrih of the verse that I have heard form no one else. I have not posted it since I need a bit more clarification as this is a delicate issue.

    Now as sidi aH has said it's a verse and should not be taken literally.

    Sidi Noori, I think that the question popped up in your mind because many speakers routinely say that on the night of mi'raj, RasulAllah(peace be upon him) had gone beyond the boundaries of space and time - aka - 'into' la-makan - and that this line dividing makan from la-makan is exactly where Hazrat Jiibraeel ('alayhissalaam) had halted and said the famous lines that: if I move even a hair's breadth further, my wings shall burn.
    So this line is the sidarat-ul-muntaha- "aya sidrah ka maqaam, bola aaqa se ghulaam aage badh sakta nahi" - the Lote tree at the farthest boundary - the boundary that separates makan from la-makan. This short tashreeh usually occurs before or after quoting "wahi la makan....".

    Atleast for me this was the reason for the above question - since it is natural to think that if there is actually a well defined 'boundary' then the other side must be "just another makaan".

    So when Mufti sahib said that on the night of m'iraj RasulAllah(peace be upon him) had not 'entered' la-makan - for it is not possible for makhluq to exist without makan - I was taken aback (because this meant that my thinking had been wrong thing all this time) - but also glad since a part of the riddle that had been bugging me for long had been solved.

    But the other part still remains unsolved. . .
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    something's amiss wording-wise.
  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    i heard a molana saying that RasulAllah went with the speed of light on the night of ascension but with latest scientific findings and figures the size of the whole universe is 160 billion light years, and i assume that what science calls the universe is the space only under first sky (Allah knows best), therefore the speed RasulAllah went with was extremely higher than the speed of light, yet it was still a slow place as it was a journey to show him alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem the ayaat of Allah azza wa jall.
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    has nothing to do with one who sees. all muslims will see Allah ta'ala in paradise, but that has nothing to do with those who see Allah ta'ala who is transcendent from space..

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  9. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    this also brings up an interesting question, is it possible for makhluq to be free of space? for example when our beloved prophet alaihi afDalus salaat wat-tasleem got divine vision in the night of mi'raaj sharif, was he free from makan or he was still stationed in an exalted place?
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the other thing is that there is word play of makeen.

    makeen is commonly known as 'dweller' 'inhabitant' one who is in a 'makan' is a makeen.

    but makeen also has another meaning which is now archaic [in urdu at least].

    it also means, distinguished - dhu makanah, and makanah, means: 'a place of distinction' 'a lofty station' [al-manzilatu `inda al-malik: a high rank near the king]. [taj al-arus, m-k-n, 36/189]

    it has yet another meaning that means, "slowing down" "deliberation"

    tu-addah, tamahhul. it is said: marra `ala makanatihi ayy tu-addatihi: he proceeded slowly, haltingly. [taj,36/188.]

    with a poetic license, it means, he proceeded to the furthest limits of space, haltingly, deliberatingly....

    baDhe to lekin jhijaktey Dartey, Haya'a se jhuktey adab se ruktey

    the verse of surah hud 11:93 is quoted for this usage; imam baghawi in ma'alim al-tanzil says: "you work at your pace," that is deliberation [in accepting the Divine Command].

    furthermore, the verse of takwir, 81:20 describes sayyiduna jibril as "makeen" meaning: "one of lofty rank near the Lord of Arsh".

    alahazrat's translation: "malik e arsh ke huzur izzat wala".

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    very true, but i couldn't figure out how to say that except using 'in'.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    btw, the very line you have quoted should be in full:

    wahi la makaN ke makiN huwe, sar e arsh takht nashiN huwe
    woh nabi hai jis ke haiN yeh makaN, woh khuda hai jis ka makaN nahiN

    clearly, nabi is in makan and khuda is transcendent from makan.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Aqdas likes this.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    poetic expression should not be taken literally, much less a statement of aqidah.

    in which case:
    bacha jo talwoN ke un ka dhovan; bana woh jannat ka rang o roghan

    must mean that water washed off his blessed legs was used to irrigate paradise and "oil" it.


    i shudder to think what people may do to ibn al-farid's poetry...
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    wohi la makan ke makeen hue
    sare 'arsh takht nasheen hue

    How can someone be a makeen if its LA-makan by definition?
    Heard a completely out of the blues explanation of this from a very senior scholar, a khalifa of Mufti-e-Azam, and a very learned personality. But I wont write anything until I get a chanceto confirm whether what I've understood is correct or not and that chance may come soon, inshaAllah.

    one thing is certain, 'arsh is not in la-makan. Btw 'in' la-makan doesn't make sense - since nothing can be 'in' nowhere.

    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  15. Junayd

    Junayd New Member

    Are there any statements of Alahazrat or his khulafa/students on this issue?
  16. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    even the words "us ke aage" seem to suggest a direction.
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    if he really said it then we would also have to believe that arsh is also in la makan, sounds very strange. it might be a slip of tongue, or an effort to explain something that cannot be explained.
  18. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    this wrong explanation of "la-makan" is something quite common nowadays, sadly...
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i was watching qtv today and the discussion was on the blessed night of Me3raj.

    it's astonishing that upon being asked, Mufti Suhail Raza Amjadi gave a tashreeh for la-makan as follows:

    the above is more or less verbatim quote of what i heard, and to be honest i was astonished that an Amjadi scholar, a mufti more so, would say something like this

    that is simply no different than the mujassim albani's aqidah which states that space finishes at a certain point, and then it's no-space-place or no-place-space (what ever you wanna call it) and that's where...

    according to this aqidah, la-makan is just another makan, with probably no air or atmosphere or something, and that's exactly what Suhail Raza said.

    again, the sad part is that the anchor asked him to explain la-makan

    Mufti Abu Bakr Shadhili was also seated there and didn't utter a squeak

    and 3arsh par tashreef-farma is really as bad as tashbeeh gets, based on my meager knowledge of Urdu

    am i over-reacting here or have they stopped teaching basic 3qaid to muftis in the mufti course, going overboard in commercial tasawwuf and na3t-khwani?

    is that what Ala Hazrat stated in his Qaware3 al-Qahhar?
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