Lack of Adab? Valid or not

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by abu Hasan, May 4, 2014.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i can turn the same thing around for you and say:

    are you influenced by buddhists or buddhists influencing you?

    that verse is for muslims - sunni muslims regardless of how badly they falter in deeds; this has nothing to do with heretics. the verse you should read for adab is:

    in the tafsir of surah mujadilah, 58:22.

    imam qurtubi says that imam malik raHimahullah used this verse as proof for resenting the qadariyyah and to shun to their company. ash'hab has reported from malik: "don't sit with the qadriyyah; hate them, bear enmity with them for the sake of Allah." and cited this verse.

    qurtubi says further: "when he said qadriyyah (the sect that denies predestination, qadar) this includes all the oppressors, rebels and dissenters.

    imam nasafi in madarik al-tanzil says concerning the same verse:
    one whose faith is sound (iman) and has sincere belief in oneness of Allah (tawHid) will never find peace in the company of a heretic, nor will he keep his company and will display his hatred for the heretic.

    and he who is lax (dahana) with heretic, Allah ta'ala will deprive him from the sweetness of sunnah; and one who accepts a heretic for gaining respectability in this world (or worldly honour - izz al-dunya) or wealth of this world, Allah ta'ala will humiliate him and give him poverty for his (greed of worldly) wealth.

    one who laughs with a heretic, Allah ta'ala will deprive his heart from the light of faith (nur al-iman).

    whoever does not believe this can experiment and ascertain this himself.

    imam suyuti in durr al-manthur:
    Tayalisi and ibn abi shayban from bara'a ibn aazib: RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said:

    "the most reliable (and strongest) bond of faith, is love for the sake of Allah and hate for the sake of Allah."
    and prior to this he narrates from abu nu`aym in his Hilyah, from ibn mas'uud raDiyallahu anhu:
    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: Allah ta'ala sent waHy to one of his prophets to tell a certain ascetic (aabid):

    as for your withdrawal from this world, (zuhd) you have hastened comfort for your own self. and as for your forsaking everything and worshipping me (inqita'a) then you have earned honour by (becoming my worshipper); but what did you for me, my right incumbent (ma li `alayk) upon you?

    the ascetic said: "my Lord, which duty is incumbent upon me (that i have not fulfilled)?"

    Allah ta'ala said: "did you befriend my friends and bear enmity with my enemies?"

    are you saying that in the interest of peaceful co-existence with different religions, we must forsake the kalimah "laa ilaaha illa Allah"? because that may offend people who worship half a million gods.

    co-existence does not mean assimilation; being kind to your neighbour even if he is a kafir, does not mean give your daughter to the kafir in marriage in the spirit of "peaceful co-existence" nor does it mean that you should feast on ham/bacon of your christian neighbour.

    alahazrat says:
    Bearing love and affection, is entirely different from giving consideration and conducting transactions with someone. The difference between the two, is like that between the sky and the earth. It is permissible to conduct transactions and have dealings with anyone, except with apostates like Wahabis and Deobandis, in worldly matters, and [matters] in which there is no harm for religious obligations. The Dhimmi is similar to a Muslim in all such dealings: “They shall have the same rights and obligations as us”.
    It is permissible to conduct transactions even with non-dhimmis. Transactions like buying and selling, leasing and renting, giving and accepting gifts (upon the condition that these gifts are permitted by the sharīáh); and to purchase anything from them, when such goods are of benefit for Muslims; and to sell them anything except weapons or such things that may be (mis)used to insult Islām.
    So also, it is permitted to employ them to do things that are not contrary to the sharīáh; and to accept employment of non-muslims in permissible activities that are not humiliating [to Muslims]; so also is hiring them and getting hired by them. It is permissible to give them gifts as goodwill as long as such gifts do not honour the rituals and religious customs of infidels, and to accept their gifts as long as such gifts do not contravene or criticise Islām. It is even permissible to marry a Christian or Jewish woman.
    As long as they make peace with us, we shall be inclined towards them [in amity] – as long as such treaties do not force us to make ĥalāl as ĥarām and vice versa. So also, [it is allowed] to have contracts with them, and have covenants with them to a certain extent; and when such a permissible covenant is made, it is obligatory to fulfil it and it is forbidden to betray or renege from such promises.
    this i have quoted in MFM.

    tahir has committed many acts which books of aqidah and fiqh have clearly classified as kufr and riddah. if people in this age think they are far more knowledgeable and full of taSawwuf than ulama like ibn abidin or ibn Hajar, we cannot help.

    - tahir has visited a christian community in karachi and worn a christian headgear that their priests and bishops wear.

    - tahir not only conducted a "multi-faith" gathering encouraging hindus, buddhists and christians to call upon their own lord in their own faith. as if tahir's acknowledges their "gods" in the spirit of fraternal love. al-iyadhu billah. the only community that was missing were jews; apparently, they didn't attend because it was a saturday. shame on tahir, even jews value their religion, and a claimant to islam has no faith.

    what is worse is that the zindiq falsely accused RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam of setting this precedent of inviting others to worship according to their customs (al iyadhu billah). only in this age, when faith is dead in the hearts of people can people tolerate this zandaqah; sub'HanAllah,

    - tahir's lies are too many and dreams even without sleeping.

    - tahir does not consider jews and christians as kafirs. he has said this not once but on many occasions; word play and false hiyal won't avail him.

    if you include keller in that - keller is a liar and i have demonstrated amply in TKM. and to please his devbandi constituency, he committed iftara on the shariah and falsely attributed positions to esteemed fuqaha such as imam subki and others.

    i am not sure that keller will repent - just like the devbandis whom he defends, as imam subki said:
    Know, that even though we have preferred the position that, whosoever reverts to Islām [after having blasphemed] and conducts himself properly and sincerely according to Islām, his repentance shall be accepted and that he shall be spared execution. This is said about a hypothetical case, and if such a condition truly exists – as it is only a possibility.
    Thus, if such a thing truly occurs, and Allāh táālā knows [of such sincerity] then he shall find salvation in the hereafter. However, we fear about such a person who has blasphemed, that his end may be ugly – we beseech Allāh táālā to protect us.
    Because, defying the blessed person of the Prophet is a grave matter, and the fervour with which he is deemed near Allāh táālā is immense; the protection and defence given to him by Allāh táālā is forceful and fierce. We fear that one who falls into bad-mouthing, disrespecting, finding a flaw in the Prophet or attempting to diminish his rank or any such thing will be utterly humiliated by Allāh táālā to the point that He shall not allow them to return to faith, nor give them guidance to return.
    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Last edited: May 4, 2014
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    your understanding of deen is pitiful

    pick up any book from any Sunni master and read the chapters on riddah. praising kufr and their leaders or saying there is any good in kufr is kufr in itself, and this phenomenon has been charged up by the common word team of scoundrels.
  3. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    I take your word on this matter and the only thing i can do is Pray, May Allah Ta'ala remove the misunderstandings between us, our shuyukh, our ulama and bless our hearts with love and peace .. Ameen

    Aqeedah of Ahl-Sunnah Is To Belittle and Humiliate The People of Innovation by najdi abu mussab wajdi akkari

    Najdis are the most extreme group and closest to the khwariji sect.

    After watching the video, i can only say I don't know if we are getting influenced by Najdiyya or Najdiyya are getting influenced by us. However, we have developed lot of similarities in our tones.

    Last but not the least, what i understood from those quotes is Islam's nature of Peaceful co-existence in different cultures with different religions. In simple words Surat Al-Baqarah [verse 256].

  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    people like ali jifry, omar bin hafeez, nazim al-qubrusi, gibril haddad, hisham kabbani, mark hanson, nuh keller, timothy winters, faraz rabbani etc. are DIRECTLY responsible for zandaqah such as this that you routinely find on beydeenport:

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    and there is written proof - sunni scholars approached keller most politely and offered to give him our side of the story, but he most arrogantly dismissed them with his high-preaching.

    when it comes to offering unsolicited advice and passing judgement or sweeping generalisations or lying about and slandering a whole community, keller's tasawwuf sits in the freezing cold on the alps. but when someone criticises his blatant lies and slander - he becomes oh-so-warm and preachy: "don't get into arguments.." and drops names like fudayl or sari or junayd or shadhili as if only he reads those books and the rest of the world is as ignorant about islam as his grandfather. (notice that what he deems insult for his own father - presuming that keller is a muslim - his tasawwuf is unperturbed when some scoundrel utters such words for the Messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam).

    as for hamza yusuf: in spite of his protest that he is not a perennialist, he sits on the board of perennialist publishing house fons vitae - does not even whimper against unislamic pictures and books from FV; writes fawning forewords to perennialist books. all these people hobnob with zanadiqah such as hossein nasr, reza shah kazmi etc.

    hamza yusuf is a fan of nasr.
  6. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    brother saeed, please use the search feature to look at the archives on sunniport. there is a lot of evidence presented against the deobandi faraz

    both on religion and on his character
  7. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    Brother Abdal Qadir firstly, the purpose of mentioning Allamah Ibn Taymiyyah's name twice, was the fact that after 7 centuries he was the one who openly deviated from Ahlus sunnah's creed and opposed common practices of Muslims which no scholar before him ever did. His confusion regarding few beliefs was the benchmark for Muhammad ibn abdul wahhab najdi who took from him and then twisted everything to an extreme. His opposition to Ziarat-e-Quboor especially the Roza Mubarak of HabeebAllah (Alaihisalam) & his calling to anthropomorphist beliefs all these issues make him very controversial and agreed! many scholars have condemned him with harsh words yet we have Shaykh ibn Hajar (RahimuAllah) and Shaykh Al-Dahabi who inspite of all these are maintaining a level of Adab.

    Secondly, Putting aforementioned scholars under the category of Ahlul bidah and Zanadiq would be an extreme on our side. Considering the gravity of corruption these groups had in their creed.
    For example, Khwarjites are a perfect example of Ahlul Bidah and we all know about the likes of Dhul Khawaisara at Tamimi.
    on the other hand we have Jahmiyyah who are a perfect example of Zanadiq.

    which brings me to my original point under the light of explanation given by Al-Attas
    that no doubt, All scholars have shortcomings. However, their shortcoming does not nullify the rest of qualities/capacities/potentials because of which they are still eligible for Adab by which i donot mean showering them with praises or accolades but a minimal respect deserving for a fellow muslim and a scholar.

    Lastly, I am totally against Isolation which has caused lot of misunderstandings among ourselves. Prime example would be of Nuh ha mim keller, yes he is wrong. But, How many bareilvi scholars approached him regarding statements made by deobandi elders? I am definitely sure that if proper barelvi scholars would have met with him, exchanged thoughts with adab and given him texts written by Alahadhrat (Rahimullah) he would have understood what was the stand of Alahadhrat and his struggle for the common man's Iman and his Love for Holy Prophet(Alaihisalat-o-salam). These are the cracks and loopholes deobandis keep searching for, Once they find these they are relentless and influence.

  8. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    Brother Noori, what little i read on these issues, i got the point that shaykh hamza yusuf did use a wrong word "Defend" for dante while he was trying to make a nuance between dante's thought and orthodox christain thought. However, these two issues i won't be able to comment till i do some reading and come to a conclusion. Be it a scholar or a layman like myself we all have shortcomings. InshAllah! once i get to a conclusion i will share.

    This issue is the most critical and the main difference between elders of deoband and Alahadhrat (Alaihirehma). Elders of deoband had the choice of accepting Alahadhrat's advice and repent. However, they pleased their nafs and for duniya defended such beliefs and such statements which only increased nifaq in their heart, soul and creed. Likewise, the ones who followed these elders and defended them and their statements and hold such beliefs will also be answerable on the day of reckoning and part of their blame will go back on the heads of these elders.

    No sane muslim who has even an ounce of love and respect for Holy Beloved Prophet (May Allah bless him with purest blessings) can think in this way and use such statements. Brother with sincerity i ask of you, if you can provide me with text, audio or video were shaykh faraz rabbani is accepting or defending such beliefs and these statements then InshAllah! i will refrain from taking any kind of knowledge from him.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother Saeed Malik,

    thank you for the definitions. that's why i asked them to you.

    let's just go by two of these:

    so is respecting the ahlul bid3ah and/or zanadiq a good trait? can you bring examples from the seerah of the Prophet, 3alaihis salam, or that of the sahaba for it?

    is it a praiseworthy action or statement to shower accolades and honorable titles to the ahlul bid3ah and zanadiq? what does the seerah of the Prophet, 3alaihis salam, and the sahaba say in this regards?

    what does the seerah of the awliya-e-kamileen say in this regard?

    did Sayyidina Ghawth-e-A3zdham respect and shower honorable titles towards the ahlul bid3ah and zanadiq?


    ibn taymia's case is a bit different and detailed. the scholars around those times included even those who didn't know the full extent of his deviancy or took his tawbah on the apparent and so on. indeed there are those who know of them, and have even issued fatawa of takfir on him even saying that those who address him as "shaykhul islam" are also disbelievers. there are also many many Ahlus Sunnah scholars who classify him as a heretic, just stopping short of takfir.

    may i ask you to leave ibn taymia aside and focus on those definitions of adab and then bring forward examples from the seerah of the Prophet, 3alahis salam, and his blessed companions where they have addressed the zanadiq or open kafirs or ahlul bid3ah with honorary titles or reverently. we know for a fact that their seerah's and characters are the best of examples for us to follow and the best of the best of good traits and praiseworthy actions.
  10. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    so, you say that comparing and equating the ilm of rasul Allah aliahi afDalus salaat wat-tasleem with the ilm of kids, mad man or animals is adab, and respecting such a blasphemer is adab? this is what faraz is.

    and you say that recommending and defending Dante is adab? this is what mark henson is

    and you say that calling obama and tony awliya, and defending this stupid view is adab - this is what jf is.

    and you call it bay adabi (disrespect) to reject them, and perhaps you think that condemning heresies is against tasawwuf, is it?
  11. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    Dear brother as you know i am a layman. By Allah's immense grace i could compile the below text relating to Adab.

    Shaykh Ibn Hajar Asqalani (rahimahullah) defines adab as ‘doing or saying praiseworthy actions or statements and adopting splendid character’. (Fathul Bari vol. 10 pg. 414)

    Close relation of Adab, Ilm, Hikmah and Marifah

    Brief explanation given by shaykh Syed Muhammad Naquib al-Attas
    Imam Abdul Qahir Jurjani relates Adab with Marifah in his Kitab al-Tarifat

    The inner truth of adab is that all good traits are combined. Thus the one with correct behavior is the one in whom all good traits are combined. From this comes the word 'ma'duba' 'a banquet' i.e., a gathering for food.
    (Imam Al-Qushayri in Al-Risala)

    "The first thing which God has commanded for His servant is 'bringing together' (jam`), which is courtesy. 'Courtesy' (adab) is derived from 'banquet' (ma'daba), which is to come together for food. Likewise courtesy is to bring together all good. The Beloved Prophet (Alaihisalat-o-salam) said, 'God taught me courtesy.' In other words: He brought together in me all good things (khayrat); for he then says, 'How beautiful is my courtesy!' In other words: He made me a locus for every beautiful thing (husn)."
    (Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi in Futuhat, II 640.23)

  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother, that article you linked is supposedly translated by hisham kabbani. i do not trust him even 0.0000001% as a truthful, knowledgeable or honorable man.

    in any case, what you linked is only an anecdote of a debate. it is not the definition of "adab".

    my question to you is very simple - please bring me a definition of "adab".
  13. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    My dear brothers as a layman if i could define Adab in simple terms i would say refined ettiquettes.

    However, Essence of Adab or Adab in implementation can be understood if you can go through the below mentioned link.

    Meeting between Shaykh Ibn `Ata' Allah al-Iskandari (RahimuAllah) and Allamah ibn Taymiyyah

  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    brother Saeed Malik, can you first define "adab" please?
  15. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Brother faraz is not a Sunni, but a neo-deobandi.
    Hamza Yusuf is not one either, because he is a perennialist, and a modernist.
    gf haddad has some strange non-sunni views
  16. Saeed Malik

    Saeed Malik Active Member

    Bismillah wa salatu wa salamu ala Rasulillah wa ala alihi wa sahbihi adjma'in.

    Assalam-o-alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

    Many a times i see on this forum names of scholars mentioned very casually by their first name. For example like Shaykh GF Haddad, Shaykh Faraz Rabbani, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf etc.,

    I expect Najdis to do that because they have no concept of Adab and they don't consider islamic science of Tassawwuf which in itself is a science of Adab.

    But we are the followers of Sufiya and the Awliya who are exemplars of Adab and piety.

    The best example in mind is of Shaykh ul islam Ibn Hajr Asqalani (rahimullah) who criticized Allamah ibn Taymiyyah but also kept adab by referring to him as shaykh ul islam.

    Why is that we don't follow these ettiquettes, Every scholar has his/her shortcomings. Does that take Adab out of the Picture?


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