muslims invented hamams and saunas

brother noori,
of course, for a muslim, shariah defines what is right and wrong but what i am saying is that a person should have the freedom to choose whether he follows it or not without being compelled to by society or state. in short, i have become a proponent of the view that a person's religion is no one's business but his own and certainly not that of the state's.

after all, as you say, a muslim will be (should be) God-fearing and not give in to these temptations for fear of punishment in the here-after but at least people should have the option of choice. Same goes for the comment you made about hijab vs walking down the street in not much clothing: a person should have the right to choose how he or she wishes to dress. (which is why I totally oppose the bans on hijab in France.)

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wadood, all the iranians i have met apart from TWO have hated islam despite being grown up in an islamic state where shariah is enforced. but i accept that as an iranian you will know better about the situation there than i can ever do.

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AQ it is not about winning or losing. just discussing. sometimes its good to be
put out of your comfort zone...makes you think! hence on white supremacist forums i might support the rights of black separatists or vice-versa!

 

the situation in iran is very complex. its not trivial. most outsiders dont know this

brother asif is incorrect in regards to iran

 

Good points from brother Naqshbandijamaati. I agree with you. I have same experience same as liek you.

 

yeh, very nice definition of tolerance, did you derive it from Quran or Sunnah or from the western culture?

so you don't believe in statistics, but only in your imagination. and even if it is true, then does islam allow a (pretty) woman walking down a street at night engrossing and enticing the desires of hungry wolves? so your criteria of tolerance and virtuousness is flawed.

put it this way: you are saying that everybody is allowed to live naked and even in public, and if people are not enticed then this is the height of piety and ethics, rather than covering oneself modestly which was far more easier on personal level than to demand something from many a people, pious and debauched.

who defines something is off-limits? western culture or the shari'ah? moreover, you appear to believe in that shari'ah restrictions are only for hungry wolves, and not for those who are satisfied. as per your logic there should be no restrictions for anything because then people will eventually want to do it, but if everything is in access then they won't react like gorged sleeping lions do (which eventually won't last long ).

mixed-sex-school guys, i bet, and i have seen. but in any case it is not a rule of thumb, it may happen as you think, but it doesn't mean that those guys from mixed-sex-school are more tolerant or in high ethics towards opposite sex.

 

in russia/ukraine/beylorussia, generally, it has become as bad as in greece/italy/serbia/croatia, and worsening

russia/ukraine/beylorussia and especially hungary/slovakia have enlargening neo-nazi movements that might put nazi germany to shame today. They breed this culture.

poland seems comparatively conservative to the above countries

bosnia and turkey, are very conservative and religious countries compared to above, and understandably because they are Muslim

 

surely the westerners, because they don't have any shame or fear in their hearts, but a muslim doing the same still has that guilt and fear in his heart. i realize that whenever you bring up such an issue you forget that the first and foremost requirement is to have belief in Allah (like He has ordered). sometimes i feel that western culture has so much effect on you that you have accepted it being the best moral standard for example you seem to have no problem with committing sins openly, it is bad that muslims do sins covertly.

you seem to have good (which turned out to be worst) experience, your whining is obvious and understandable.

it is your experience that made you believe in this, actually you don't want to be tricked again and again, but you don't want to quit. you don't appreciate that it is still the beauty of islam that a muslim commits sins but with fear in his heart, and he may repent because he knows that he has to answer one day.

that is something you may not tell with certainty, it is worst than committing the sin itself, but you cannot tell it with confidence, unless you have such experiences you illustrated above, which may or may not be your own experiences, and i pray that they are not, inshaAllah but don't forget your own stated rule.

my apology, i usually do not respond in such manner but it is unfortunate that sometimes you appear to be ashamed being a muslim and craving that islam should have a loose framework of life for anyone to tailor for his own desires and culture he appreciates or loves to live in.

disclaimer:i am not pretending to be holier than you, i am very sinful and may Allah forgive me for my sins and save me from them.

 

who was talking about holidaying and work-related visits? i was talking about LIVING, in the burbs, working, for extended periods of time. i haven't really lived anywhere 'all my life'. i even made it a point to mention visits separately. sure, i wasn't born in the west if that's what you're after or if it makes a difference.

only to their lifestyle.

they are growing increasingly weary of muslims and the islamic lifestyle, specially in europe.

who said it does. i never insinuated eastern men are ALL cleanskins.

having LIVED in both the west and the east (not those exact cities), i can say what you're saying is just orientalist and media drivel about stereotypes.

there's an equal likelihood of protection or harassment in either place (western or eastern). the way big cities work is they have the good neighbourhoods (safety-wise) and the bad ones. it's simple as that.

it's also about culture. eastern europe, italy, greece and russia are different than the uk for instance. their men (the perverts) are bigger dogs than any desi or arab man you'd see eve-teasing on the streets of cairo or lahore! in russia it's so bad, even the women consider it as acceptable behaviour, all those acts you described!

on harassment - in modern europe and the united states, a woman in a burqa or niqab is much more likely to be harassed than one who's not, but that's another discussion.

so what you're saying is that - we should abandon the shari3ah laws of purdah/hijab which are not implemented anyway at a state level, just the very little sense of personal practice we have left and the minuscule communal sense of Muslim identity and shame we have left - and implement the european model that saab and mem saab follow? (some practice is better than no practice, as far as Islam is concerned)

if not, what EXACTLY is your implication?!

so your implication is that Muslims should all root for co-education!

should we do it the same way the west does it?

or should we add a halal certification to it calling for "Islamic co-education"?

should the girls be mandated to wear hijabs?

do we let boys and girls sit with each other, or do we divide the class into two halves?

where's wadood when you need him? i'd love to see him comment on your proposals for mixed gatherings.

why don't you take this proposal up with your Shaykh Ilyas Attar hafizdhahullah and ask him to dispatch a few co-ed Madani Qafilas?

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sorry bro, that's all the time i had to play with you. you're a stirrer. fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me!

i'm done engaging with you on this topic which has a tendency to pop up every few threads.

you win.

 

sidi holidaying in and visiting western countries a few times a year for business is not the same as having lived all your life there.

i think your mark about boys will be boys is mostly true if you concede that it equally applies to the muslim world. look sidi i aint an uncle tom -- i am a very proud in-your-face type of negro [to quote malcolm] which often gets me in trouble here in real life as i tell the devil the truth to his face!--BUT i would be a hypocrite if i didn't think that in terms of how they react to the opposite sex in public -- what two adults do in private is their own business--the westerners are more tolerant. as you to making lewd comments, yes, i have many known many british muslim and pakistani friends who would make such comments. i'm surprised it surprises you.

let me put it this way: i think a pretty woman walking down a main shopping street by herself at night would be less likely to be harassed (eyed up, maybe even touched up, followed, wolf-whistled etc.) in say berlin or london or stockholm than in lahore or delhi or cairo.

the only point i am making is that if you keep something hidden and off-limits people are only going to do it regardless and want to do it more. let me give you an example which will serve well: who do you think would be more likely to go completely nuts over seeing women for the first time--a person who has been to a single sex school all his life or someone who has been to a mixed sex school all his life when both go to uni?

 

yes. and i daresay probably in more western nations than you. of course i've also lived in the subcontinent, the middle east, and turkey.

Allah knows how many times i have visited and where. in a good year i travel abroad about 5 times, once in a bad year, for any number of reasons, work or personal.

figure of speech. i've seen quite a few.

i am.

you have the license to lash out at the arab and muslim world with the "saab and mem saab are Allah's gift to mankind" attitude, don't you?

i have the license to lash out at the "immoral west"

i'm talking about middle or upper class people who have gone to college/uni and work in executive/white collar jobs, not trailer trash.

collectively drool over = collectively make obscene remarks about a friend's wife/partner in his absence in addition to perving (the same applies to female coworkers)

you serious?

it's not the arab and muslim world where women are used as tools of trade for marketing, promotions and advertising.

it's not the arab and muslim world where things are so bad that at trade shows, conventions and exhibitions that are frequented by the sophisticated "upper strata" of society, they need to hire female models to actually "attract" people to their stalls

maybe their styles are different, but boys are generally boys where ever you go, with the west being leagues ahead of the east in general!

you're right and that's exactly from where i form an opinion on you.

you're the one comparing apples to oranges - the catholic's convent that exists in the larger western society to the overall muslim society - you're comparing a subset from a larger set to a full set.

the catholic priest has the entire western "bazaar" open to him. the western priest is more wrong because despite having more "legal access" in society at large, he still attacks people from his church.

you show no coherence or comprehension.

read my post number 2 on this thread.

you fail to grasp that today's islamic countries suffer from idiotic unislamic governance. in the past, they were certainly not perfect (islamically speaking), but at the same time they were not as idiotic, and at what ever level, there was an implementation of the shar3iah, which is not the case today.

read the tafsir of surah 3asr regarding how the trivial many of mankind generally ALWAYS has been in error except for the vital few.

of course you don't.

you just judge the overall muslim culture & society.

you're a bigger man than me. i just judge individuals based on what they say.

maybe that's why you've taken it upon yourself to follow saab and mem saab's fashion sense and convey their advise to the muslim world what's best for them - to even things out you know

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as endearing as you may be as a brother and for all your jutta's charm, you've really got your priorities on this topic mixed up.

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this forum has become like a shakespeare's play lately. i'm trying to figure out who is contributing to the tragedy and who to the comedy!

 

if this is a sin between you and your Lord, you should conceal it. read the tafsir of v148 of surah nisa if you like.

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yes, pretending to be holier than thou is bad, but having the ghayrah of iman (acknowledging the sin and considering it vile and hence concealing it out of shame) is far better than shamelessly showing their sin.

wa billahi't tawfiq.

 

thank you. i acknowledge your magnanimity. i say this sincerely and not sarky.

as i said in my other post, if you won't be condescending, we will be polite to you too.

 

and its very fashionable and common for muslims to criticise the "immoral West" whilst ignoring the same things in their own back yard. as they say in panjabi, "pehle sawTii maar apnii manjii thalay" or "do not look at the mote in your brother's eye whilst ignoring the plank in your own!"

 

apart from a select few--and that mostly from the countryside back home--i find --via experience--that we muslims are worse because though the westerners may do these sins openly whilst not considering them sins--Euope is largely a post-religious society (unlike the majority of the USA) and the idea of sin is not taken seriously--muslims tend to be all high and mighty and moral in front of parents/elders/maulvi sahib but do the same things if not more than their non-muslim counterparts. so who is worse? with a white woman she will probably tell you how many lovers she's had before and will leave you when she wants and tell you if she's been cheating on you and then leave you but the muslim woman will pretend to be all humble and servile and pious and "brother we cannot meet without a mahram" and other stuff and after you've worked on her for a bit--all women are susceptible to flattery (malcolm x) -- she will suddenly ....well you know. then you'll discover she ain't no virgin and has been round the block more times than a bicycle rider. but she will still pretend to be little pious miss muslimah in front of her father/brother/mother etc. g. yes, i am generalising and yes muslim boys in the west are often as bad if not worse so in a way we deserve each other but my point is that imho its better to be openly sinful than to pretend to be holier than the next person whilst being worse!

 

just to remove any doubt the last sentence was meant to be sarcastic sidi AQ

 

point taken abu hasan. what you say is fair. i will only contribute to the fiqh thread if i have anything constructive to say.

 

i can say the same about you AQ! you are stuck in your own little dogmatic well like the frog and refuse to believe there is a world outside which might think differently! and the argument about "you cannot compare today's islamic countries with today's west because no country truly implementing real shariah exists today" is baloney. it is an argument i also used to make when arguing with non-muslims. until i realised that apart from the time of Aaqa :as: and the 30 years of the khulafa e rashideen --and that is arguable--- where was this mythical perfect islamic state? it never has existed outside the minds of people like you. and you always accuse me of only reading books by orientalists --which isn't actually true--but try reading books about the history of islam from other than your own select few scholars from uttar pradesh!


but unlike you i don't judge people for expressing there opinion nor call them stupid and i still love you bro. if you do live in the west tell me where via PM and if its near me we can go looking to cure some of those "immoral western sluts"--innit blood?!

 

i did not delete a single post of yours. you scientific, logical types cannot figure out even simple things. i have moved all your posts here.

please recognize that this is a side discussion. i have no problem with you discussing it per se. but in that thread, we are talking of fiqh books and fiqh issues. you can contribute, if you have anything to say on that subject.

did you ever ask the teacher to draw the structure of sucrose in a mathematics class?

 

how can i contribute to that thread if you will delete it?!

 

nj, if you post in the fiqh thread again, i will delete it. you have your own thread to rave about; please do not disturb that thread unless you have anything to contribute in that thread.

thanks for your patience.

 

society has NEVER been free from "sex crimes and vices". why? sin is part of human nature. an intrinsic part [except for anbiya]. the best we can do is hope to limit it and control it to an extent by laws and ethical codes. but the problem is no two people agree on what is right or wrong, beyond very broad generalisations such as "murder is wrong", "stealing is wrong" etc. so to legislate for moral issues is difficult and assumes a utopia which can never be achieved and only leads to misery in practise. better to teach people what is right and wrong and let them decide if they wish to follow it (as long as they don't harm another person).i think that is the philosophical brilliance of religions which believe in an Afterlife as it provides a real incentive --for the pious--to not at in immoral ways. Of course, one person's immorality is another person's normal behaviour!