Nasiha to Barelwis

Discussion in 'Multimedia' started by Abdullah Ahmed, Sep 4, 2022.

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  1. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    The bottom line is that no Sunni/Barelwi Ulema should be (publicly) criticizing other Sunni/Barelwi Ulema unless there is serious and major deviance that needs to be addressed and for the public to be warned about...this constant back and forth, believe it or not, severely undermines the image of Sunnis and Sunni Dawah in general...

    @abu Hasan

    Is their a code of guidelines that ulema can refer to that lists out what needs to be prioritized in discussions i.e when and where Ulema should be bringing up other Ulema and the adab with which it should be done...

    many Jahil/Awaamunaas Sunnis end up moving away from some of our own Sunni Ulema due to lack of adab with other Sunni Ulema....

    May Allah rectify our conditions

    امين في خير و لطف و عافية
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i came across a book today,in which the author makes the similar argument about "baraylwis", which i have been making for years.


    baraylwi, p48.png



    baraylwi, p57.png

    the book is attached.

    Attached Files:

    Abdullah Ahmed and Unbeknown like this.
  3. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    ‎الحمد لله والشكر لله
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    ماشاء الله

    جزاهم الله خيرا for the clear statements by sh. Asrar.

    It was really heart warming to see sh. sahib speak in frank Urdu.

    May Allah ta'ala increase his knowledge and tafqquh and aid him in his deeni endeavours.

    I hope there will be no further hair splitting on this subject.

    We need to stand shoulder to shoulder in the face of the severe challenges facing us and our people. And sh. asrar has much to contribute to the cause - including in the form of producing the next generation of ulama who are acutely tuned to the times we live in.

    I look forward to at least a few of his students with PhDs from Oxford and Azhar both.

  5. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    This topic and ifs offshoots in various threads never seems to reach a satisfactory conclusion. When it seems like that it is close to finishing, something else comes up. We just end up going in circles. Like Mufti Qasim Zia said, Shaykh Asrar has clarified so best to move on. We got bigger issues to deal with.
    IbnAsif likes this.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    'bradford ka admi' :) nice.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  7. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    Brother @Aqdas, did you at least make any attempts to get a clarification from Owais Qadri why he’s sitting with this jahil pir? This is an old clip and when I initially saw it (few years ago), I was quite disappointed.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    This is what Shaykh Asrar meant:

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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    a few clarifications on my posts on shaykh asrar:

    1. i have said in the posts that shaykh asrar is a sunni scholar, but holds a few opinions which we do not agree with.

    2. his criticism of khurafat in the subcontinent are valid - i am not against that and my complaint was that all these are added in 'barelwi' account.

    3. in my first post i had said:
    this was a dig, a sarcastic comment and not MY statement. it was said in the context of: how would he feel when mentioned with deviants?

    i came to know that some people are using the above comment to claim that shaykh asrar is a wahabi. it is not true. i have said that shaykh asrar is a sunni scholar.

    i have also been told that sh.nuruddin itr did not dislike alahazrat. i wish and hope it to be true.

    but it is also a fact that a syrian sunni scholar told this to me (that sh. nuruddin disliked alahazrat) when he visited me. even if the latter were true (that he disliked) i have emphasised that it was because of the canard spread by deos/nadwis and he was closer to us in belief and practices than the deos. i have said that sh.nuruddin itr was a sunni scholar, a prominent muhaddith of our time and he has passed on to the mercy of Allah. raHimahullah.

    wAllahu a'alam
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  10. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    Now that I think of it, I don't actually remember any barelwi saying Ya Ghawth al madad in my presence ever. We just hold it permissible, and no one I know is forcing wahabis to say it; our only demand is that they stop calling people who do istighatha, mushriks.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Remembering Allah more than awliya is from aadaab. With the correct aqidah, a man won't be deemed a deviant even if he says Ya Ghawth for 50 years. But it is against correct adab to call upon others the same as or more than Allah. E.g.

    How are you?
    Ghaws paak ka karam hai.

    Hold on, what about Allah ka karam hai?

    To be fair, when giving thanks, Sunnis remember Allah: Allah ka shukr hai. Other things too like in illness: may Allah grant shifa.

    Maybe this isn't just about istighathah but remembering Allah ta'ala generally. E.g.

    Saying takbir once
    But risalah thrice

    This isn't about permissibility but aadaab. We have to consider the impression we give the public.
    Nissaar likes this.
  12. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    And why was this "Nasiha" being addressed in Angrezee and not in Urdu. Did he not intended it for the scholars of India and Pakistan(Although it wasn't justified)?
  13. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Veteran

    please forgive my ignorance, as I am not as knowledgeable as some of you other brothers

    But my understanding is that:

    this also applies to any type of help whether spiritual or worldly.

    One goes to the doctor knowing that the ultimate cure is with Allah and that the doctor is just a means

    same with taking ones car to the mechanic etc

    Why the specific emphasis on sadd adharayi for spiritual means?

    Is it because people tend to forget that Allah is the True disposer of affairs and that the Prophet ﷺ and the Awliyaa are Waseela?

    or is it because of the annoying insistence of Salafis/wahabis that has permeated within our ranks to such an extent that some of us feel the need to pacify Salafi/wahabi sentiments by appearing as though we are active in preventing shirk and or the appearance thereof?

    because, personally I have rarely come across people doing istigatha. And even if they do so, I’m sure they recognize that they are calling upon Awliyaa who can help them through the permission of Allah- at least that’s the husne dhann I would have.
  14. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    I’ve personally never heard in our masajids or mehfils people screaming “Ya Ghaus Ya Ghaus.” Yes, when manaqibs are recited (Talab Ka Munh To Kis Qaabil Hai Ya Ghaus… Magar Tera Karam Kaamil Hai Ya Ghaus, Imdad Kun etc.).

    In du’a, all our Ullamas begin with praises of Allah and then waseela. Even then, they are addressing Allah first (Ya Allah joh bimar hai, Ya Allah joh pareshaan haal hai tere Pyare Habib ﷺ kay waseelay say etc.).

    Again, Shaykh Asrar isolating single incidents and painting everyone with same brush. This is just ammo for opposition.
  15. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    Do people really do it often? I never meet anyone who had a frequent habit of saying Ya Gauth or similar.
  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    the same holds for ash'ari/maturidi doesn't it?
    why don't we say: oh that jaahil ash'ari who circumambulates the grave or that stupid maturidi peer who wears ten rings on five fingers?

    same for qadiri, ashrafi etc.

    because when you refer someone by a nisbah that is specific to an individual scholar or saint, you are implicitly directing attention to the individual and if the said action/person is not a good representative of that school, you are in effect maligning or misrepresenting the school itself.

    Sunni is a broad term whose flipside is heretic, and if you say someone is not sunni, you are laying a grave charge against him, for which you need rigorous proofs.
    Hence, when someone commits fisq, we have to say they are sunni, but we won't say, generally speaking, that they are barailwi - because Alahazrat has not condoned those actions.

    But then, do we say they are not barailvi?
    Especially for the awaam, we cannot say this either, precisely because of the overlap between "sunni" and "barailwi".

    If we say that, then they would automatically be saying that they are one of wahabi/devbandi/rafidi/naturi.

    Hence, we have to say, they are sunni/barailwi but not practicing ones. Because they commit khurafaat which are foreign to the teachings of Alahazrat.

    It's a different matter for the pirs and leaders - they have to be called "not barailvi" - because they are considered representatives by default (of someone or something) - on account of being seen as leaders.

    TL;DR: It depends. You have to be careful about the impression you are creating in the minds of your audience.

    Speak to people at the level of their understanding.
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  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    not "most" - always - 100% of the time.

    First and foremost we follow the command "Call upon Me, I will answer you" and then we follow: 'take a waseela unto Him".

    That is the correct adab.

    We petition the Almighty for His succor and assistance, then we say that though we are sinful and undeserving, we are the ummah of His beloved (صل الله عليه وسلم) and for his sake, may He accept our supplication and send His Mercy. Then we can turn our tawajjuh to the Prophet (peace be upon him) or the awliya and ask them to help us by that spiritual ikhtiyaar that Allah ta'ala has gifted them with - and all this while never forgetting for a moment that Allah ta'ala is the Real Helper, Who will allow the walyi to help us or not, as He chooses and so this istigatha is but a type of tawassul - in which the tawajjuh is directed, in shawq and 'ijz, toward the servant, knowing well that the servant has been raised in the Divine Court, on account of his extreme obedience and servitude and fear of the Almighty, and whilst we seek their aid on this bases, the Almighty is al-Kahbir, ever watchful and not for a moment missing from our thoughts or feelings.

    Allah knows best.
  18. AlialHanafi

    AlialHanafi New Member

    To be fair even al-Buti kept referring to al-Albani as Shaykh Nasir in his book that ultimately refuted him and morons like him
    Unbeknown likes this.
  19. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    The same criticism can be levelled against our dear Shaykh Asrar, who has been vocal on numerous occasions that he is a (proud) “sunni” and not a “barelwi”. If Shaykh Asrar insists people should be called “Sunnis” then why single out Barelwis only when it comes to goofis and “ignorants”. Shouldn’t he say that amongst sub-continent Sunnis there are some ignorants who do xyz?

    In addition, Shaykh Asrar made a general claim about Barelwis. When presented with evidence challenging that claim by aH, rather than revisiting his position in a video, or contesting the evidence, he dodged the challenge by arbitrarily defining the criteria for membership in the Barelwi group by saying “pseudo-barelwis” (to imply that his claim is not applicable to the true barelwis). A perfect example of the no true Scotsman fallacy. Here, it is not clear what the attributes of a Barelwi is, as it is not as clearly defined as say ‘people with blue eyes.’

    Furthermore, what happened to Shaykh Asrar’s appeals that he has a “wide audience” and has to take this fact into (serious) consideration whilst responding. Did he not think about the impact that this video would have on his extensive audience when he threw Barelwis under the bus?

    I have to add that Shaykh Asrar breathed a new life into Shahid Ali who seems to have crawled out of his hole and now making posts with such vigour one would think he is a fountain of truth and transparency—as clean as water.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  20. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Well-Known Member

    I have actually heard people bring up these points after listening to sheikh Asrar and his loose application of the term 'bareilawi'.
    It has most definitely had a negative effect when it comes to the image of the Sunnis here in the UK.
    First, it was the sidis and now Sheikh Asrar.
    Funny thing is the sidis despise Sheikh Asrar and would throw him in with the 'extremist bareilawis'.
    Seems like sheikh is trying to create a new image to appeal to the wishy washy (let's all hug and hold hands) masses.

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