Nuh Kellers audio on imkan alkidhb

as-salamu `alaikum sadati, what do you make of the following from al-Durr al-Thamin Sharh al-Murshid al-Mu`in:





(the reference was mentioned in an old guiding helper site reply and this was the only seemingly related quote found thus far)

 

I finally heard the audio and was utterly disgusted. These are the same questions (those posted by Hasan above) I too have for now for nuh keller and his supporters.

 

I agree .

Shaykh Nuh gave reference of Sharah al Mawaqif of al Jurjani in his audio clip.Do you have exact reference from this book?

I have a question.

Lying is a flaw.Why is that only this flaw is with in the qudra of Allah?


Can we extend the same anology to other flaws? That is, Allah CAN do { }, { } and { } (fill in the brackets with flaws) BUT HE chooses not to do it.

We are here to learn.

Hasan

 

.....

 

Excellent post Bro AH. JZK.

I'm sorry but in my opinion whether you know little or a lot about your Deen, specifically with regards to your Aqeedah, the statement from Nuh Keller is jaw-dropping in an age where we crave to find reliable and reputable sources for the preservation of our Iman.

This whole issue for me is just too much.....what better way to test that than asking a child....the answer:

'It's not possible is it because He's Allah......He made us all and everything. If He could lie then that means the Quran might be wrong and there may be lies in it because we wouldn't know would we......Allah can't trick us like that'.

That is what I call maasoom.........

May Allah azzawajal Guide us all to the True Aqeedah. Ya Rabb forgive us all for erring in our lives and Guide us all on the Right Path. Aameen.

 

a few quick rejoinders:

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the reason why i said 'probably nuH keller is lying' was to give a taste to any of you who respects him (i did too until this clip, but alas..) the anger at such brash statements. you don't have to tell it to anyone, ask yourself whether you felt it was bad adab. if it was, then how about attributing falsehood to Allah ta'ala? even hypothetically?

try this: "it is hypothetically possible for nuH keller to lie". which is a true statement, by the way.

the reason for righteous-indignation, is to revive the fear in muslims that nobody will be excused by making major errors in aqidah and such things should be nipped in the bud. and one should not hesitate to disagree with even those people you respect and admire when it is a matter of aqidah.

i have been saddened immensely, since day-before-yesterday (in this part of the world) and doing du'a for shaykh nuH ever since.

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when obscure terms are thrown about, it only adds to confusion. translating it into english is not easy either - unless a sound illustrative example is found. but for the awam, i have my simplification for this notorious "not intrinsically impossible" term.

a. kadhib is a flaw as agreed by all reasonable men.

b. kadhib is not intrinsically impossible (as claimed by the fools - sub'HanAllahi 'amma yaSifun)

c. ergo, it is not intrinsically impossible to have a flaw

restated:
d. that is, the possibility of flaw to exist in the Creator (even hypothetically) exists.
​

which muslim in his right mind would make the above statement? what has happened to everybody? do you need proof from kalam books to straighten up your aqidah?

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a person with the above aqidah is however not ruled kafir; and we - al-iyadhubillah - refrain from takfir, as our imam has detailed in the end of his risalah, sub'Han as-subbuH. he however also notes that one group of ulama ruled such an aqidah kufr to highlight the danger in considering it lightly.

our elders have taken extra caution in matters of fiqh to be not found short on judgement day; and should we not exercise this caution in a core principle of aqidah?

wAllah al-musta'an.

----
the three rasayil of imam ahmed rida khan raDiyallahu `anhu wa nafa'ana bi barakatihi - resolve many mushkilat/problems sorrounding this issue. unfortunately, the last risalah is incomplete (al-qam' al-mubin li aamal al-mukhadh'dhibin) but his point is anyway made.

i will try to summarize:

1. aqidah is that which is stated in books of aqidah and is generally agreed among all ayimmah.

2. an obscure point in a book of kalam, which could have probably used as a device of argument (sometimes when the argument tries to play the devil's advocate) should not be taken individually to prove a point of aqidah. sometimes, we write with some context in mind and it is interpreted or seen entirely different - even diametrically opposite to what we are trying to say. anybody who has written or translated a book or article will surely know.

2a. in this context, the book al-mawaqif is quoted where imam al-iji says that

you know madh'hab of the ahl as-sunnah fully well. it is therefore, that we shall not present (our objections) in such [ambiguous] places, based on our assumption that you are aware of the correct position wherever appropriate [al-iji, al-mawaqif]
​

and

it is necessary for you to concede to the principles of the people of truth (ahl as-sunnah principles) in all the discussions, even if we have not clearly stated them [ibid]
​

2b. restating the above: anything that is found contradictory to the established aqidah of ahl as-sunnah should be discarded in favor of the well-known and widely-accepted article of faith.

2c. the books of kalam are full of arguments by false madh'habs and their refutation. one cannot just pick up a statement from the middle of a discussion to prove their point. see maqalat al-islamiyyin for a quick check. those who have not read books of kalam like sharH al-mawaqif or sharH al-maqaSid or even al-musayarah are simply unable to appreciate this layer of complexity and the intertwined arguments that cause confusion.

2d. and it is therefore, kalam and (mere) kalam scholars have been frowned upon; so much so that when a person leaves in his will for 'islamic scholars', the kalam scholars will have no share in it. (that is scholar who knows ONLY kalam).

2e. to clear the above confusion, scholars of kalam make it clear that their own stand should not be confused by seemingly ambiguous statements in their arguments; and hence make their own statement of faith:

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the book al-musayarah by imam kamal ibn humam ends thus :

conclusion [of the book/our discussion]:
an explanation of the aqidah of ahl as-sunnah wa'l jama'ah.
​

there is a running inline commentary of its sharH al-musamarah by the imam ibn abi'sh sharif [in blue]:

the author, may Allah have mercy upon him said: and we conclude this book with an explanation of the beliefs of ahl as-sunnah wa'l jama'ah so that we mention in summary the major points that have been explained in detail earlier; because a concise summary after a detailed exposition in various places gives more clarity and explains the objectives more clearly because of their contiguousness and being in one place easy to refer; and that is: the creed of ahl as-sunnah.
​

the book was a discussion which also included statements from heretics and mulhidin which were then refuted. however, here in the conclusion is our belief in case you have misunderstood or mixed up the quotes.

so on page 326 of my edition, the imams say:

it is absolutely impossible for Him (Allah sub'Hanahu wa ta'ala) all attributes of flaw like ignorance and falsehood; rather it is also absolutely impossible for Him [to have] any attribute that has neither perfection nor flaw because every attribute of the Lord Almighty God is that of Perfection.
​

يستحيل عليه سبحانه سمات النقص كالجهل والكذب بل يستحيل عليه كل صفة لا كمال فيها ولا نقص لأن كلا من صفات الإله صفة كمال

​

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​

to attribute this fasid aqidah to an imam is a double crime: stating a false aqidah, and then slandering the imam.

----
and then there is the issue of terminology. inshaAllah more on this and some reflections on absurd constructs like baab-al-gate or khubz of the bread and water of the maa' later.

wAllahu ta'ala a'alam wa 'ilmuhu atam wa aHkam

 

i am afraid I have to stay anonymous.

 

actually, i'll keep all my posts on this topic, inshAllah.

 

Khayr may Allah forgive us all.

 

Dear brother, as-salamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah:

I apologize for my outbursts. In addition, I probably understand that a lot of people know who I am.....Sidi Abu Layla, as for my refutation is concerned, I should probably more accurately label it a "beginner's attempt" at expressing the way of Ahl`e Sunnah wal Jama`ah on this issue and not an actual refutation, la hawla wa la quwwata ila biLLah....I'm not an individual who is even worthy to write anything, much less articles.

As for my ignorance, it is the truth. I am the ignorant khadim of sayyidi alaHazrat radhiy Allahu `anhu. May Allah forgive me. Honestly though, I wasn't trying to promote myself, like you have incorrectly stated. Jazakamullah khayran Sidi Abu Layla.



May Allah forgive me.

Wassalam `alaykum

your young and lowly brother,
muhammad abu abbas al-ridawi al-hanafi

 

Salam `alaykum:

Firstly, dear brother Abu Layla, I apologize if my outbursts offended you. I mean to direct them to "supporters" of Nuh Keller rather than individuals like yourself who seems like he/she needs proper explanation to help clear up some misunderstandings rather than being bashed. I now understand and realize that I was reading too fast and mistook you for a Nuh Keller "supporter". That's my bad, sidi. I'm sorry.


Secondly, my "harshness" is not personal against Nuh Keller. My harshness is based on jazbah and for the protection of Ahl`e Sunnat , not nafsi inclinations and I hope and pray, dear brother Abu Layla, you understand why.

Thirdly, I apologize for mistaking your for a "supporter" of Nuh Keller, that is my mistake

Fourthly, while I understand your concern about adab, it has now gotten to a point where `ulema-e-Ahle sunnat have privately sent Nuh Keller messages and letters, especially Shaykh Asrar Rashid and Hazrat Taj-us-Shariah, but to no avail, and such a statement Nuh Keller has made is so grave, that `aqida-e-aHle sunnat must be protected and laymen must be warned and the `adab of Allah `Azzawajal and his Messenger sal ALlahu ta`ala `alayhi wa salim must be put before intra-personal `adab

I hope you understand my feelings, inshALlah, dear brother.

Wassalamu `alaykum

your lowly brother,
abu abbas al-ridawi

 

this is quote

و ذكرنا في المسايرة ) بطريق الإشارة في الجملة ( أن الثاني ) أي أنه يقدر ولا يفعل قطعا ( أدخل في التنزيه ) فإن الذي في المسايرة ثم قال يعني صاحب العمدة من مشايخنا ولا يوصف تعالى بالقدرة على الظلم والسفه والكذب لأن المحال لا يدخل تحت القدرة وعند المعتزلة يقدر ولا يفعل ا هـ ولا شك أن سلب القدرة عما ذكر هو مذهب المعتزلة وأما ثبوتها ثم الامتناع عن متعلقها فبمذهب الأشاعرة أليق ولا شك أن الامتناع عنها من باب التنزيهات فيسبر العقل في أن أي الفصلين أبلغ في التنزيه عن الفحشاء أهو القدرة عليه مع الامتناع عنه مختارا أو الامتناع لعدم القدرة فيجب القول بأدخل القولين في التنزيه

His statement is quite clear. Now either 1) Ibn Abi Sharif made a mistake, 2) tahrif has taken place or (3) this is the position of some of the asharis.

 

Akhi Abu Layla: The passage of Musamara has been dealt with already. Look at the discussion of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan. Here he deals with the quote you are mentioning:

http://www.razanw.org/modules/alahazratbooks/item.php?itemid=75&page=411

Of course you are gonna have to read the whole chapter, but in the link he mentions that part of Musamara and Musayara more specifically.


Sunnitalk: Yes, those stupid posts are made by real laymen, but we are trying to moderate the site, please do du'a for its success.

 

I am very familiar with this but I was not discussing Rashid Ahmad, nor is the discussion about him, it is about Shaykh Nuh and yes this is due to him originally defending Rashid Ahmad however I wanted to discuss the issue not personalities. The reason I said this is not about imkan al-kidhb is exactly due to the reasons you mentioned i.e the deobandies coined the phrase and many of our sunnis think that Ala Hazrats fatwa of kufr is on imkan when it is not whatsoever it is on wuqu. So I did not want to mix the issues as many of our sunnis think they are one and the same.

I know many of his works on the issue I have a few of them but not all.

Thats exactly what the discussion is about can the brothers who have a good command of urdu translate those passages regarding the quotes in the above mentioned books. As for the quote I mentioned as far as I am aware I don't think ala Hazrat mentioned it and if he did can some please post his bahath on it.



More to come inshaAllah.

 

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I am very glad to be a follower of alaHazrat radhiy Allahu ta`ala `anhu

 

Abu Layla wrote:

That is wrong. Mustahil aradi is imkan alkidhb according Rashid Gangohi (Fatawa). This term was coined by Deobandis. The taking place of kidhb was called: wuqu' alkidhb.

Subhan alSubuh was a tract refuting imkan alkidhb ie mustahil aradi, as you must be well aware.

When further issues were raised, other works were written like:

Damane Bagh Subhan alSubuh (1307ah)

alQam'u alMubin liAmalil Mukadhibin (1329ah)

This last work deals with the Musayara text, Sharh alMawaqif and the comments of Abdul Hakim Sialkauti.

An interesting work is Tasbih alRahman, by Allama Said Ahmad alKadhmi, rahimahuAllah.

More to come inshaAllah.

 

Nuh Ha Mim Keller has been asked this issue at least three times by people i know. Each time he brushed the issue aside and made this statement that he himself hold the position that he stated on the recording.

To brother Maraqialfalah: Sidi Maraqi, Abu Layla is not a supporter of Nuh Keller. He wants the ISSUE discussed and destroy the dalils of the Deobandis but without discussing Keller, so this may be done an academic fashion.
Then it will be made clear that Nuh Keller has slipped, and this may become apparent to him and he may return to Ahl alSunna inshaAllah.

We also have an half hour recording of Faraz Rabbani which will be released soon inshaAllah.

Note to Abu Layla: Can you please present the passage of Ibn Abi Sharif from alMusamara, i may have some interesting people look into it.....

 

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