Parameters of Sunni ulama sitting with deviants

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Hanafi Sunni, Jan 6, 2023.

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  1. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

    None of Mufti asad's qna have references in them. We dont even know whether his taking out answers from islamic books or his pocket. The only time we get to learn about his blunders are when ulama correct him.

    The fatawa books of our indopak ulama are a very good guide on how to answer questions.

    Allah save the ummah from misleading scholars.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    How it should've been answered:

    Someone asked:

    'Why do sometimes scholars of different sects come together I don't get it especially from middle east and west like are they all chill and it's just extreme tension vibes in southasia only.'

    A. Because subcontinental scholars follow the Quranic and hadith injunctions of abstaining from deviants.

    Allah says:

    'Do not sit with those people, until they engage in some other conversation; or else you too are like them.' (4:140)

    'Turn away from them until they engage in another topic; and if the devil causes you to forget, then do not sit with the unjust after remembering.' (6:68)

    RasulAllah ﷺ said:

    'Run far from them and keep them away from you so that they may not mislead you.'

    'You must not sit in their company, nor eat, nor drink nor marry in them. If they get sick, do not visit them nor attend their funeral if they die.'

    So the general ruling is of prohibition and subcontinent Sunni scholars obey these ordinances.

    Those who you describe as 'chill' are disobeying Divine Commands and Prophetic injunctions. Do they know better than Allah and His Messenger ﷺ?

    The reason for abstinence is obvious, as mentioned above by RasulAllah ﷺ: lest they misguide you.

    Yes, there may be matters of common concern where an accomplished Sunni scholar may sit with deviants, as long as his view on their deviance is manifest.

    E.g. a Sunni scholar featuring on a panel consisting of various sects on the issue of LGBT.

    The scholar must be accomplished, mutamakkin; not a young boy who has done 3 years somewhere. It isn't permitted for him to sit with deviants.

    If scholars normalise relations with deviants, the faith of the general populace is at risk. Do scholars not fear Allah that they are endangering the eternal afterlife of Muslims?
    Abdullah Ahmed and Unbeknown like this.
  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member


    This reply has errors and is incomplete.

    He says, as long as the beliefs don't reach kufr. Which means it's ok to share stages if they "only" reach the level of bidah. As if bidah is a small matter.

    More benefit than causing divide.
    So those who abstain are doing wrong by causing division. Whereas it's the order of the Quran and sunnah.

    Check the undertone.

    Ijtihad and furū.
    Very dangerous. Our differences with shiah, devs, salafis aren't on ijtihād and furū. This is downplaying the entire debate.

    The post taken as a whole is legitimising sulh kullism. Nowhere has it been said that this must be restricted to issues of common concern and that ulama mustn't sit with deviants otherwise. Nowhere does it say ulama, and that too, only those firmly grounded; can sit with deviant scholars to rectify them.

    The reply is encouraging young students of knowledge to unrestrictedly mingle with deviants - publicly.

    And by extension, pushing common sunnis to not just tolerate sulh kullism by religious leaders, but in fact to like and cheer it.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
  4. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Well-Known Member

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    o it is the burdah singer.
    what is the harm to listen to a burdah singer who gives out strange opinions on various issues on social media?

    the hadith which can be summarised as: in end-times, people will consider juhala as scholars and they will begin asking them questions. and they will answer without knowledge. they will be deviant and they will mislead people.

    we live in such times.

    if one does not know the answer, it is not below one's dignity to say: 'i do not know'.
    in fact, it is the mark of great ulama that they would say 'i do not know' without hesitation.

  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    It's now open.
  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023
  8. ghulam-e-raza

    ghulam-e-raza Well-Known Member

  9. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Some pertinent points @Aqdas, especially in regards to publicising meetings with scholars from a different group. A prime example was the few sunni Shaykhs taking a picture with Taqi ul Uthsmani and I am pretty sure I saw Dr Khalid Mahmood in the background, who is a vehement opponent of the sunni Brelwi school. In my opinion those sort of images just cause confusion.

    However, where I do disagree is that where there are meetings about Muslim issues then sunni scholars should not be vilified for attending nor should they have to be required to take the pulpit and refute the same people they have tried to work together with to further the Muslim cause. That is not just impractical but it is also counter productive to attending the meeting in the first place.

    Finally, I came across a letter whereby a certain Arab sufi shaykh was asked to clarify his stances on certain issues. One of the issues was that he was asked to clarify was his stance on deobandis. As far as I am aware this is the modus operendi of sunni scholars from an Indo/Pak background that any Arab Sunni shaykh they come into contact with, they 'encourage' him to refute the deos and attest to Hussam ul Haramain. That has not been successful because the Arab scholars just don't want to get involved in issues, which they believe are domestic and end up thinking sunnis are just trouble makers. An opportunity to utilise their expertise is then lost.
    We need to be strict in our principles but smart and sage in our dealings.
  10. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    The reason why associating with deviant scholars should be controlled is because it ultimately creates softness in your heart for them.

    A known Sunni scholar might sit with deviants to bring him to Ahlu's Sunnah or to come to an agreed framework.

    But the Sunni scholar has to be extremely careful and before and after each meeting, contemplate on the purpose of the meeting and recall the Quranic verses and hadith about the putridity of the deviant he sits with.

    One danger of continued meetings with innovators is the mellowing down of criticism towards them from the Sunni scholar. Naturally, you won't publicly refute the one you keep having tea with.

    I say, such meetings should never be publicised. No photos. Nothing. If and when the deviant accepts Ahlu's Sunnah, then matters can be publicised.

    Also, if you simply make a post that x Sunni scholar hosted x heretic, what will Sunni public take from it? Did the Sunni scholar ever consider that?

    Sunni scholars are permitted to meet deviants to rectify them but there are conditions: first and foremost, the Sunni must be fully grounded in Sunni aqidah. So not every scholar is permitted.

    Secondly, like I said, what's the need to publicise the meeting? You're only damaging Ahlu's Sunnah and our perception of deviants. If you want or need to meet them, do it behind closed doors and don't allow pictures.

    Thirdly, the Sunni should keep reminding himself, this deviant is an enemy of Islam. My heart still contains abhorrence towards his evil. I sat with him to correct him. Otherwise, he is the worst of creation.

    The Sunni scholar might be a seasoned debater but you never know when Satan fires his arrows. Meetings with deviants should be the exception, not the norm.

    Instead, Sunni scholars should expound the Sunni aqidah in their lectures and the deviant can seek guidance from them. I just feel repetitive meetings with various innovators causes softness towards them and this is lethal.

    The first and foremost job of the Sunni scholar is to keep Sunnis Sunnis. It might seem a pious endeavour to sit with deviants but it can turn on you. Satan is your enemy.

    Sunni scholars who sit with deviants should take to the pulpit after meetings and thrash the same deviance that they aimed to rectify to ensure the meeting hasn't affected their heart. If need be, and if he's famous, name the heretic too.

    Same goes for email contact with deviants. Don't let sweet talk mellow your refutations. If the world knows you're in touch, it's hard to then refute the deviant.
    Ghulam Ali and Unbeknown like this.

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