pir nasiruddin and tafzil

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Feb 8, 2016.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mr. nawaz. i have far more respect for the learning and hadith knowledge and arabic of qaDi iyaD and imam nawawi than you. but why are you so insistent on your video - are you beginning to imagine that it is your magnum opus? are you really waiting for a refutation? even if nobody does it, you cannot change the fact that great ayimmah such as aTa and sha'abi reported from hundreds of SaHabah the matter of tafDil of shaykhayn.

    that won't change - long after hasanain bukhari is dead, people will still mention aTa and sha'abi as tabi'yin imams for tafDil of shaykhayn and hasanayn's opinion will not amount to shucks.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
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  2. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    I think you need to come off your high horse and bring some evidence for your claims. It may be good for your langotia yaar aqdas missbahi but for us it is the evidence that matters. I don't know where to start... I never presented Imam abdur Razak for Muawiya ibn abi sufyan's case. It is you who frame the question yourself and then answer it. typical sophistry. There is no 'IJMA of Ummat' that Abu Talib is not a muslim. this is an overstatement in line with your sunni-sunai. whatsmore is that great sunni imam has explicitly with words of Ijma of Sahaba stated the the same thing about the Blessed parents of Huzur paak (saww)....what now? and that video for mufti akhtar sahib was just to demonstrate that he himself is controversial and considered by his own peer khana as a bidati hence not deserving of their khilafat. and that was in reply to aqdas calling Peer Naseer al-gilani as an innovator and I told him that look close to home and see your own indian muftis. and as for your reliance on hadith about abu sufyan asking for three things...re-read that anachronistic report in the other thread. I know why you won't reply to that video about tafdil. somethings do not have an answer... naach na janey aangan tehda!
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    pir nasiruddin sahib is not hujjah. he is now passed on - we hope and pray into the mercy of Allah ta'ala.

    given conflicting reports that he did not do ruju'u and that he did, i will not fuss over details if a reliable sunni scholar claims the latter. even if he didn't, he was not an abusive tafzili to the best of my knowledge like PAQS and his estranged followers. regardless, only short-sighted fools will give precedence to any contemporary scholar's opinion over imams and mountains of knowledge.

    i do not know much about him [pir naseer] except that he is grandson of pir mihr ali shah sahib raHimahullah and some other things we learned on the forum by way of book-links, opinions of ulama and videos on youtube etc. we have already discussed them - dig the forum and satisfy your curiosity. i even refuted his unwarranted: 'bring em on. i am the son of ali..' empty bravado. as if there are no sayyids on earth or sons of ali except nasiruddin shah sahib. as if pir nasiruddin sahib has a bigger claim to being son of ali than ibn abidin shami, murtada zabidi, shaykh abd al-qadir jilani and sayyidi data ali al-hujweri, sayyidi abdullah alawi al-haddad and the whole ba'alawi clan in haDarmawt.

    i don't have the time to 'analyse' hasanayn's videos or his fallacies; nor will i waste time arguing with him on this now. except, stop for a moment and and think: is nawazuddin and all the hadith scholars of today more knowledgeable of hadith, rijal, ilal and meanings of hadith than previous imams? do they claim to know better and love the ahl al-bayt more than any of these contemporaries? you will see hit-and-run always. imam abd al-razzaq san'ani is useful to malign hazrat mu'awiyah, so he is praised high and big - but what were his views on tafDil? oh, i don't accept everything he says, will be the excuse. similar to salafis, all you own is a procrustean bed.

    now, you may turn the same question over and pose it to us: you quote abd al-razzaq san'ani on tafDil but why don't you accept his views on hazrat mu'awiyah? the answer is simple - it is the sawad e aazam. where any scholar differs from the sawad e aazam, it is logical and reasonable to follow the majority group and disregard the lone-opinion. anyone who studies hadith narration and hadith-analysis will know that there are various levels of aberrant positions vide narrations graded shadh, munkar, gharib, fard, mu'allal, muDTarib etc. the severity of such aberration varies as well based on the situation, context - whether it is related to aqidah, farz, mandub etc. ignoramuses pick up some hadith that apparently validates their wahm - post it without context and expect us to accept their view based on translation of that hadith.

    it depends on what you mean by 'over-praising'.

    certainly no sunni will say that he was in the same rank as mawlana ali raDiyallahu anhu. anzilu al-naasa manazilahum.

    the facts are that he was a saHabi. that he became a muslim either during fat'H or a little prior (according to varying traditions). there are many many SaHabah greater than him - he passed away at the age of 82 in the year 60 AH. that means he was 22 at the time of hijrah and around 30 at the time of fat'H - the Conquest of Makkah and . after this, his father abu sufyan requested RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam to grant him favours among which was a request to admit hazrat mu'awiyah as a scribe of the Revelation. no one can criticise him in his islam, though he was clearly in the wrong in his battles and disputes with mawla ali raDiyallahu anhu.

    imam Hasan handed him the khilafah by foregoing his claim - not out of fear or desperation, but out of kindness for the ummah and his dislike of bloodshed. foolish people chided imam Hasan even at that time, for making peace with hazrat muawiyah; one of such people said: 'salam to you, the disgrace of muslims' [`aar al-muslimin] and imam Hasan, the epitome of generosity, forgiveness and forbearance replied: 'disgrace is better than hellfire.' [al-`aaru khayrun min al-naar]. so imam Hasan's abdication was a charity for the ummah - he spared further bloodshed. i reiterate that imam Hasan did not abdicate out of fear - but only compassion for the ummah. a man who forewent his rightful claim of khilafah - for he was far more deserving of being the amir al-mu'minin at that time [i.e., after passing of his noble father] - for the sake of preventing bloodshed only once during battle; would he hand it to a tyrant and an oppressor for those very muslims to suffer for 20 years?

    notice - imam Hasan handed khilafah to hazrat mu'awiyah in 41 AH - and hazrat mu'awiyah remained khalifah for 19 years. imam hasan was martyred in the year 49/50/51. about ten years after he handed the khilafah. did he berate or revile hazrat mu'awiyah for the previous wars?

    anyway, those who try to dig out narrations and reports against hazrat mu'awiyah just to malign him under the guise of 'narrating history'

    there are a number of forged narrations claiming to be manaqib of hazrat mu'awiyah, but muHaddithin have noted that they are weak or forgeries. we must avoid forgeries and weak hadith are accepted in manaqib/faDayil when they do not contradict standard sunni narrative or do not contradict SaHiH narrations.

    but have you wondered why do people speak of hazrat mu'awiyah - even though he is a junior saHabi and there are many many SaHabah greater than him, such as abdullah ibn mas'ud and abd al-raHman ibn awf, for example. the reason is, that it is a response, a reaction to extreme antipathy towards a SaHabi. if they did not vilify him, nor would they vehemently defend the SaHabi.

    the foolish person looks at it as only defence of hazrat mu'awiyah. the idiot imagines every defence of hazrat mu'awiyah to be borne out of hatred of amiru'l mu'minin mawlana ali, and hence labels defenders of hazrat mu'awiyah as a naSibi. but someone with little knowledge of the issue and decency will realise that it is out of love of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    people claim greatness by being students of some big shaykh or imam - Hasanayn and his father sing hosannas to the murtad padri in spite of his obvious excesses which only the blind can ignore. apparently zahid sahib has this love for him because of his stance on abu Talib [if i remember well... feel free to correct me on this one.] but sub'HanAllah, having been in the company of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam does not amount for anything?

    as if these people are judges of who is good or not according to their own ijtihad and they have no value for the saying of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam? al-iyadhu billah. what kind of madness is this? how can they call themselves as muslims? they refuse to accept the saying of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam, which is implied, even if they don't do it explicitly. didn't RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam ask us to refrain from talking ill of SaHabah? then why this preoccupation?

    the ijma'a of the ummah is that abu Talib is not a muslim - yet zahid sahib and hasanayn bend over backwards, even citing opinions of latter scholars disregarding imams of sunnah in this particular issue.* compare this with hazrat mu'awiyah who IS a muslim and a SaHabi, which only the rafiDi disputes - we are not asking you to write manqabat or conduct conferences for him. just keep quiet if you cannot say anything good about him.

    a good muslim should not seek faults of fellow muslims - then what about the companions of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam? even those we criticise and refute is for the sake of islam and ahl-e-sunnat, we discourage people to criticise people for their personal flaws.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    nawaz, your desperation is showing.

    hazrat nazmi miyaN did not talk about tafzil in this video you linked - you are only displaying your petty mentality by linking that video here.

    with due respect to late hazrat, how can he repeal the khilafat given by his father? he is of almost the same age as mawlana mufti akhtar raza khan (mawlana aal-e-rasul syed hasanayn nazmi, born.1946) and it is a different matter if he disagreed with him on any issue or refuted him. being a sayyid and of almost the same age, he might have taken liberty to say things which may be justified for him, but not for others.

    according to you just one sunni scholar criticising another contemporary scholar is enough to rule someone an innovator, without even examining the issue or whether he really considered him such. but thousands of sunni scholars down the ages - sayyids or not - imams of hadith and fiqh, awliya'a have all considered tafzili aqidah as bid'ah, innovation. yet, you ignore all of them for some vague or unclear statement claiming it as evidence for your bid'ah.

    if you don't learn and desist from what you are doing now, that day is not far off when little children will make fun of you; and you will return with a great loss of dunya and akhirah. nasalu'Allaha al-afiyah.
  5. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Dont know about Pir Syed Naseer al-Gilani (ra) but we know that Mufti akhtar raza khan sahib is an innovator by the stance governed by his OWN Peer Khana, now that is difficult to swallow.

  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Let's not complicate matters.

    1. If he did tawbah, fine.
    2. If he didn't, and he denied tafdil al shaykhayn, he was an innovator.

    Our stances aren't governed by individuals. They're governed by the ijma'a.
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  7. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    tall claim.

    is a movie of 150 minutes equal to billions of man-hours research done by the millions of Ulema through the ages? what a joke.

    here is Ala Hazrat's masterpiece, with quotes from Syeduna Ali himself on who is afzal among the Ummah. now the tafzeeli's have to prove that Syeduna Ali was speaking incorrectly. if they do, they are automatically dis-qualifying Syeduna Ali from the post of afzaliyyat. ALERT: tafzeelis in fact do accuse Syeduna Ali of not speaking the truth.

    Ghayat ut Tahqeeq fi Imam til Ali ye Was Siddique


    The English Translation (pdf) is attached to the post.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  8. Qais786

    Qais786 New Member

    Can't trust this farooq chishti . He runs to any pir when it suits him. Those witnesses need to come forward. I've never seen clear evidence of rujoo
  9. Abdul Rehman Butt

    Abdul Rehman Butt New Member


    Last time I checked this Farooq was a murid of Jalalpur Sharif!

    As for closest murid? Lets just say it wiser to to keep friends close but enemies closer!
  10. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    Value of Irfan Shah Sahib, we know the views of Pir Syed Naseeruddin Shah Sahib & their son on this, videos are online.
  11. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    Nawazuddin I have quoted Hafiz Farooq Chisti, who is close to Pir Abdul Qadir Sahib. I asked him myself, his son wasn't in the UK at the time.
  12. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    here it is to open your horizons. merely shouting does not prove it, it is the evidence that counts and you do not have have evidence to back uo your claims. :)
  13. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    That is BS!!!! Ask his family and they will tell you the value of irfan shah sb and the rest. Stop making this nonsense arguments. ask any aapne pew ne puttar kolon to say it in public??? until then just do Syrian theories...
  14. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    Only Brothers like Abu Hasan can answer your question. The side who seem to accept it do not stop those who are against him.
  15. Harris786

    Harris786 Veteran

    Is the retraction accepted in private if the act was carried out in public?
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  16. Muhammad Ali

    Muhammad Ali Veteran

    He had done Ruju apparently. Speak to his closest mureed Hafiz Farooq Chisti. He said before he died he had a meeting with Sayyid Irfan Shah Sahib in their house. They asked him about the deobandi Imams and few of this issues for what he done Ruju. He said when he gos to Pakistan he will write about this & his Ruju, but he went Pakistan and within a week or so he died.

    Their are about 7 or 8 withnesses to this. Even those Ulema who were present and spoke to him said if their are any videos like this we will say they are wrong since he did Ruju from this in front of us.
  17. Qais786

    Qais786 New Member

  18. chisti-raza

    chisti-raza Veteran

    to be fair, this is untrue. I have seen his statement wherein he states that he accepts the 'ijma of Ahlus Sunna regarding the Shaykayn being superior to Mawla Ali in excellence [radiAllahu anhum]. The signed document is available in Durban at the masjid of the late Mawlana Iftikhar Sahib. There was an issue surrounding this in Durban so he wrote a statement in this regard and thereafter signed it.
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  19. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    I believe ther was another peom he compiled in which again , he says he is not shia, but does some poetry which basically says those who did not see Ali (رضى الله عنه ) after Muhammad ﷺ , what were they thinking ?!?

    im not sure if this was exactly the meaning but it was something odd.
  20. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    he did not say "superior than the prophets" - but he says 'after the Holy Prophet, including the ahle-bayt', which could be a slip of the tongue (for he forgot to mention after the "other prophets"). he has done that so many times in the clip - confusing the name of Imam Ahmed with Imam Malik.

    and finally he drops another bomb by saying "yeh Ijmaa e Ummat kia hai???".

    Inna lillahe wa inna ilayhe rajeoon.
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