sidelines of the discussion on atabek-shaykh asrar debate

see, bazdawi has mad a good point below, and it is not disparagement.

you feel so because you want your point of view be accepted.

also, if you take a look, many of the heresies of those individuals have been refuted rationally on this forum.

now if you look at my several previous posts there is no disparagement of yours, but i tried to present my view rationally with proofs from ahadith, but you ignored them.

that is fine, we would like you to post good stuff, as well as refute the heresies of the deviants rationally, and free from disparagement, and insults.

thread will be locked now.

 

C'mon brothers..give the brother a break.

He's admitted he doesn't like these scholars mentioned..in post #47 he says..

'The current approach just gives 'these fraudsters' an easy get out clause and detracts the layman from understanding the issue.'

He says fraudsters, what more do we want.

He has a point; lawyers, teachers, people of academia come onto our site - and when they read posts that are harsh at someone and character assassinate the individual then its harder to carry on reading and you switch off.

Just switch roles; if we go onto a deogandi site and they hurl abuses at our scholars, are we going to carry on reading?; it switches you off because there is no substance in the writing.

Sh Asrar said something very pertinent on his FB;

'When Shaykh Buti wrote against and debated Shaykh Albani the former wife of Nasir Albani approached Sh Buti to tell him the faults of her former husband. Shaykh Buti turned her away saying our dispute is objective and academic, not personal. This should be the method employed by all involved in polemics or theological debates.'

- Shaykh Asrar

Abu Hasan is an asset and Maa Sha Allah he is doing a very sincere job and his passion against falsehood comes out in his writing; you judge a person based on previous experience. He is harsh because of his steadfastness; he has seen soo many fake aliases, disguised as sunni, utter absolute disgust and have no shame, so naturally he has this trait of being wary - so don't take this personally.

I may get shunned, but brothers please look at the bigger picture; we are here to strengthen the Ahlus Sunnah, not to damage and make ourselves look like kids.

Remember each and every one on here is representing the maslak, so before posting, think; will my post aid in our maslak or will it cause destruction between us.

Allah bless you all my brothers, carry on with the hard work and may Hazoor paak صلى الله عليه وسلم have karam on you all..Ameen

Ya Ghaus Madad

 

What about social media? Im sure you must have FB. There are plenty of promoters of these deviants and murtads on there who are 'aiding in the destruction of Islam'. Maybe vent your frustrations on there [if you have an account] or will it not be "nice"?

Anyways, if you feel as if it is like banging a brick against a wall - now you know what it feels like when people are warned against the charlatan scholars yet they fail to heed the advice.

You see, there are two extremes when it comes to discussing "controversial deviant scholars"

(1) On one side, you have those who insult them, swear at them, call them names etc.
(2) On the other side, there are those who love them, praise them, promote them etc.

All i am saying is - you are frustrated about the first group of people and are criticising them whereas you SHOULD be much more frustrated and worried about the second group. The first group won't fall into promoting deviancy and kufr [although you may not like their approach] whereas the second group are guilty of dong exactly that.

 

I said i meant it figuratively and metaphorically. Nevertheless, the apparent wording did seem to imply that you, personally, associate with them and i am sorry. I should have worded it better.

 

Firstly, until recently I did not even know who Nasr is. He is not well known on the UK and with regards to the other two, whenever someone has asked me about them, I have highlighted the issues with them. This is the only forum that I am on, so which is why I have aired my views here. However, I feel that I am just hitting my head against a brick wall and there is no point in me repeating my point.

@Aqdas- Look at the context on when I made that comment and you can see that it is a credible inference to your comments about my teachers and what Bazdawi said about who I 'hobnob' with. It is not an assumption but this in itself shows how tiresome this discussion has become. I am not posting further on this thread but I hope I will be able to contribute to other threads, where it is relevant and pertinent for me.

 

Even if Harris and other brothers are "extreme" according to you - you won't find them having love for deviants and murtads. Believe me - it is time better spent warning these murids of shaykh yaqubi and other such shuyukh against hamza. Youll actually be rewarded for warning against them rather than wasting your time speaking about the mannerisms of others.

Its all about priorities!

 

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: اهل البدع كلاب اهل النار

 

I have my frustrations with them but on Sunniport, there are more people like Harris, than there are blind promoters of Hamza. I have already talked about the need of scholars having more communication between themselves, so that more issues are discussed and greater guidance for the layman. I have my issues with the Murids of Shaykh Yaqoubi but that is part of a wider debate about cults and the like and that is not relevant here.

 

what do you say about following ahadith?

عن إبراهيم بن ميسرة , قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: " من وقر صاحب بدعة فقد أعان على هدم الإسلام - أخرجه البيهقي في الشعب

إِذَا رَأَيْتُمْ صَاحِبَ بِدْعَةٍ فَاكْفَهِرُّوا فِي وَجْهِهِ , فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يُبْغِضُ كُلَّ مُبْتَدِعٍ - كنز العمال

مَن أعرض عن صاحب بدعة بغضاً له ، ملا الله قلبه أمناً وإيماناً - كنز العمال

 

Of course you should! However, do it an academic manner, which involves making the layman understand the issue, instead of bashing the person. Before Aqdas deletes my comment because of repetition, I have been very clear from the beginning, keep the focus on the issue and not the person. If the issue is engaged with thoroughly, the person get dealt with by default and those people and their supporters cannot argue that these people just rely on insults and lack knowledge. They will too be forced to engage with the issue and that will make it easier for the truth to become clear for everybody. The current approach just gives 'these fraudsters' an easy get out clause and detracts the layman from understanding the issue.

 

What about those murids of shaykh yaqubi [i say this because i know a few] who don't agree with refuting tahir, hamza, nasr etc? In fact, if you say ANYTHING against them then it considered as extremism and having tunnel vision.

They know regarding hamzas abberant views [on qadianis, dante, perrenialism, study quran etc.] yet refuse to criticise him and are full of praise for him. They share his videos, his quotes, his photos etc. Isn't it safer to call a person with kufriya positions as [atleast] a deviant rather than praise them out of "husn e dhann".

I think your frustration should shift away from people like harris etc. towards these blind promoters of Hamza.

N.B
Its rather funny [and sad] that you can take time out to speak against SP, and its members but i very much doubt you have warned anyone against hamza, tahir, nasr. If you say that you are not a scholar and therefore you do not need to speak out or hold a view against them then i must say - what compells you to come on here and criticise the brothers here?

Not a scholar when it comes to criticising fraudsters with kufriya beliefs but complacent when speaking against those who speak out against them.

 

Okay, so should we warn people against these fraudsters or not?

 

That is really clutching at straws. I said I avoid them because they are not in the UK, so I don't really know them and I also said that there are issues with them or put it your words 'their hetrodoxies' and that is another reason that I avoid them. Never in any of my posts have I praised those individuals, so don't say that your comment was meant figuratively, because what it is really is a false conclusion based on a false assumption.

 

If your "tasawwuf" doesn't allow you to give a firm hukm on hamza, nasr, tahir etc. then can you atleast unequivocally state that the views they hold are klear kut kufr. That shouldn't be too hard, would it?

 

"You and your ilk" was meant figuratively to denote people like you who share a similar mentality. You say you 'avoid' them yet it is just because they arent in the UK [as you previously mentioned] or is it due to their heterodoxies?

 

↑
'As if Sunniport is a person. Sunniport is a public forum where INDIVIDUALS such as yourself air their views.

Anyway, what did you or your teachers do about the greatest slander against Alahazrat in our times? Was it not Sunniport where the most detailed reply to Keller was released?

Also, what have your teachers done about the greatest fitnahs of our time like perennialism, sulh kullism, tafdilism, pseudo western internet devbandism, minhajism?'

Isn't it "Sunniport" that has made some of the best responses to these heresies thereby saving the iman of lay Sunnis?
Sorry, I should have phrased that better. I agree that individuals on this forum have done some good responses but other individuals have used this forum to create hypes, cause arguments and slander scholars. That is where the problem lies and I have asked for there to be a change of approach, so that the focus is on the issue and not the person. If you ask, the lay sunnis that 'sunniport' has saved, what is perennialism and why is it a dangerous belief, they probably won't know but will know that Hossein Nasr is a perennialist. If you ask them what is a Sulh Kullism, they won't know but will say that Shaykh Habib Ali Jiffri is a Sulh Kulli and so forth. That is where the problem lies.

what have your teachers done about the greatest fitnahs of our time like perennialism, sulh kullism, tafdilism, pseudo western internet devbandism, minhajism? The scholars that I respect and whose opinions that I follow were at the forefront of speaking out against these issues. You make assumptions that because I have asked for there to be greater dialogue and more engagement between the scholars, I follow scholars that you would term as 'Sulh Kulli.' I have not mentioned my teachers because I have only started studying properly recently and I have not asked them about these issues. The only scholar, who I have discussed these issues with and whose opinion, I hold in the highest regard is Shaykh Asrar. I have only mentioned him because that will be enough for you to know my background and will stop you and others from making assumptions about 'who I hobnob' with or 'who do I support.' He is not my teacher but he is someone whose opinion I certainly listen take into consideration.

Like I mentioned to Noori, I have made my point and I feel that this discussion has come to its natural conclusion. I will only comment further, if there is something for me to clarify.

 

Of course it is a repetition because once again I have had to counter another false assumption.

 

If I have already said that I avoid those individuals, how can you say that I am hobnobbing with them. That makes no sense but you like others just prove my original point that on these forums, certain people just make baseless comments, chase hype and draw their own conclusions. You have a right your opinion but that right does not extend to making false assumptions to prove a point.

Sorry, I should have phrased that better. I agree that individuals on this forum have done some good responses but other individuals have used this forum to create hypes, cause arguments and slander scholars. That is where the problem lies and I have asked for there to be a change of approach, so that the focus is on the issue and not the person. If you ask, the lay sunnis that 'sunniport' has saved, what is perennialism and why is it a dangerous belief, they probably won't know but will know that Hossein Nasr is a perennialist. If you ask them what is a Sulh Kullism, they won't know but will say that Shaykh Habib Ali Jiffri is a Sulh Kulli and so forth. That is where the problem lies.

what have your teachers done about the greatest fitnahs of our time like perennialism, sulh kullism, tafdilism, pseudo western internet devbandism, minhajism? The scholars that I respect and whose opinions that I follow were at the forefront of speaking out against these issues. You make assumptions that because I have asked for there to be greater dialogue and more engagement between the scholars, I follow scholars that you would term as 'Sulh Kulli.' I have not mentioned my teachers because I have only started studying properly recently and I have not asked them about these issues. The only scholar, who I have discussed these issues with and whose opinion, I hold in the highest regard is Shaykh Asrar. I have only mentioned him because that will be enough for you to know my background and will stop you and others from making assumptions about 'who I hobnob' with or 'who do I support.' He is not my teacher but he is someone whose opinion I certainly listen take into consideration.

Like I mentioned to Noori, I have made my point and I feel that this discussion has come to its natural conclusion. I will only comment further, if there is something for me to clarify.

My argument was never about dealing with deviants in a harsh manner because many of the Ahadith that you have quoted discusses how the deviants are shunned (none of them say swear at them and insult them) . All individuals that you have mentioned, I avoid too so that is not the issue. The issue that I have had is that on this forum we attack the person before tackling the issue and that is counter productive. The approach is not academic and is off-putting. My flowery language can be off putting too but I am not advocating that, I am advocating a change of approach.

well my answer is very clear that hamzah yousuf and tahir al qadri are murtad. tell me in a nice and respectful manner with some sugar and chocolate coated statements from classical books if their heresies are not kufr.

I have already told you of my stance on them- I am not required to give a specific ruling on them or explain why their heresies are not kufr. I follow the position held by my teachers and scholars who I trust. That is enough for the layman, it is not for them to give rulings and explain positions. This is why we are in the malaise that we are in, laymen going round (this was particular to the Salafis before but is becoming a problem within Sunnis as well) or posting things on social media that they are not qualified to comment on. However, you are more than happy to defend or tolerate these individuals because they are 'harsh with deviants' but if they were confronted by them, these keyboard warriors will not have a clue.'

These are things that I have requested you (senior moderator) to address but you are more interested in if so and so thinks that this person is a murtad. My points might be 'ineffective' as @abu Hasan points out but I am you are acutely aware of the state that Sunnis are in and in my opinion, Sunniport does more to perpetuate the problems than actually deal with the issues that concern us.

That is me being plain and direct, which is what you want. I have made my points above and I hope that they will be taken into consideration. I feel we have reached a natural end in the discussion and should look to move on.