Structured, Volunteer Based, Open Translation Department

Patronage has always been a normal way to get good works published. The current university system is a type of patronage system and surprise surprise, the ones with the most money tend to have the best academics doing the best studies and research etc.

Patronage was common in both the Islamic world and the western one. Scholarship requires funding.

One of the biggest bottlenecks on this whole translation enterprise is the lack of quality graduates who could do the work in the first place. There needs to be a greater emphasis on our brightest minds being trained in the classical sciences rather than just another engineer etc. All of the ideas that are brought into this forum (e.g. Translation, YouTube videos to reach masses etc) all fundamentally need enough competent minds put to the task.. And it's the job of the public to produce them from amongst ourselves. These are generational tasks....

 

so what you can do for your collective:

- is to get people to contribute to a fund to pay translators.

- identify quality translators - and give them handsome amount that motivates them to be dedicated in this field as a full time job.

- get brothers to create an upvote system so good translators are upvoted; and those poor are encouraged to improve. if one lives in an echo chamber, where one hears only good things about their work, not only do they stagnate, they become victims of hubris.

- publish quality work (upvoted, good reviews by scholars etc)
​

---
disclaimer: ridawi press neither solicits funds or expects financial benefit from anyone nor accepts any remuneration. all ridawi press works are free, etc.

 

Does a Lafzee Tarjamah necessarily have to also be the Haqeeqi tarjamah of that word to be considered lafzee?

If not, then Both the translation of al-sa'ah as "hour" and "qiyamah" will still be Lafzee Tarjamah

The only difference will be that the first one is haqeeqi lafzi tarjamah & the second one is Majaazi Lafzi Tarjamah

Unless someone argues that;
"The very reason why we went from the meaning of "hour" (which is the asal & default meaning of Al sā a'h) towards "qiyamah" is to fit the meaning of the sentence and once you are translating a word to suit the meaning of a sentence it already becomes a Manawi tarjamah"

Then that would mean that all majāzi meanings are also Manawi by necessity & the relationship between them is that of U'mūm Khusūs Mutlaq

I guess to find a 100% confirmed answer we will have to properly define Lafzee, Lughwi, Manawi tarjamah & find their Mantiqi Nisbah/relationship with Haqeeqat Majaaz (Are they A a'm, Akhas, Mutasāwee or Mutabayin amongst themselves?)

Just my thoughts. الله اعلم

 

I don't know if it has been mentioned already but one of the most Vital Ilm Necessary to attain proficiency in Translation is Definitely Ilm ul Balaghah.

The profound depths and intricate nuances this ilm delves Into is Just Phenomenal

 

and then there is technical accuracy. i glanced a few pages on the books linked below:

i haven't read the book yet, but in the opening i found a couple of technical inaccuracies.

on p.18 of vol.1:




the author has given the above as examples of "lafzi"/literal tarjama. but it is technically inaccurate.

the lafzi tarjama of "al-sa'ah" is "the hour" or [qiyamat ki] ghadi.

in #3, "ghurfati sadiqihi" may be idiomatically translated as "dost ka ghar" / friend's house, but literally it is "room". ghurfah is room. it ought to be "friend's room". dost ka kamrah.

====
the author says that the second method of literal translation (lafzi tarjamah) is by retaining the order of the clauses and being close to the structure. [this works only in urdu, and will be difficult in english as it is not an arabic oriented language]




and the fifth example in this list is thus:




namaz padhta hai zayd ka bhai dost kay ghar mein.

there is nothing wrong with this, but one could retain the order of words - as suggested in the description - for technical accuracy (example matching the claim). to wit:

namaz padhta hai - bhai zayd ka - ghar mein - dost kay.

if one contends that it is the first category, then the description of the second category needs to be tweaked because it clearly says: "every clause translated according to its order of appearance"

===
let me read the rest of the book.

 

True, there were many great Islamic thinkers who were also renowned translators, such as Ibn Hunayn, Al-Khwarizmi, Al-Kindi, and Al-Farabi.

 

it doesn't have to be.

let us go back to your original proposal of creating a "structured, volunteer based, open" translation dept. if you build a hierarchy in a volunteer based organisation, it is inevitable for ambitions to surface eventually. from credits to forcing one's writ to scheming to disrupting upcoming talent; politics of many hues takes place in hierarchies. it becomes a race. and those on the top constantly have to watch their back.

iman.ikhlas.ihsan will merely remain as translated words.

we should not forget that we are trying to do something in the cause of islam, and hence, all components should be islamic. vision, mission, execution plans, etiquette and examples we follow.

----

true. also, bayt al hikmah in baghdad, established by harun rashid and then his descendants, gave royal patronage to translate works from all over the world. recently, the nizam did the same.

so it is patronage. you have enough cash to pay, you can get quality translators. without being condescending towards ulama/authors/translators. after all, if it is a full time job, they need means to survive in this world and feed their families. qualified people do not have the opportunity or motivation to do this because of their occupations as imams, teachers or even businesses to earn a halal income.

----

so it has always been open source.

the best books written and survive to this day were written by authors who did so out of their passion to contribute. this door was never closed on competent people.

again we must not miss the elephant in the room. the first condition for 'translation' is sound knowledge. if a person has not read and understood sharhu'l aqayid, they should not attempt translation of kalam / higher aqidah texts. alahazrat's works are complex because there are numerous inside references only specialists can pick out. then competence: language skills in both source and target languages. and ability to look up works by authorities for clarification.

Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

If I'm not mistaken, a translation department like this existed in India quite some time ago. The Nizam of Hyderabad, through Jamia Nizamia, established a translation department that translated various Persian and Arabic books into Urdu and English. If I recall correctly, even Pickthall's translation of the Quran was done there. Additionally, organizations like DI also have translation departments that operate in a more organized manner. Given this, it might be more effective to join these existing efforts rather than creating another large organization solely for translation.

That being said, self-learning to translate and doing so in your own capacity is not a bad option either. Not everything needs to be handled at a larger scale.

 

Respectfully Shaykh, I Believe this is just how Our Ilmi System Works; From Darse Nizami to Ifta, Tahqeeq, Tadqeeq & Everything in Between. الله اعلم

 

i hate saying this as it reeks of self-promotion, but i will say it anyway.
one way of learning is to compare a translated work. for example, take the risalah of sharif jurjani. it is a simple risalah, which can be done in less than two days. (actually a matter of few hours).

when i translated it, i had two major commentaries - lucknawi and tabrizi - side by side; and since sharif's risalah is an abridgement of tibi's risalah - i would refer that as well. apart from the standard texts - nukhbah/nuz'hah and its various commentaries, tadrib al-rawi, muqaddimat ibn salah, and a number of other works.

===
once you prepare your translation, you compare with the existing translation and see how certain words were used and look up the footnotes.

====
but first, translators need to build competency - of languages, expression, style, etc. these are basic tools any translator needs.

i don't like hierarchies.

 

Maybe a Hierarchical Model will be more suitable,

Seniors Devise Easy, Non technical Booklets for New Translators in the beginning,
For e.g, Tārīkh, Seerah of Awliyah & Fadhaail etc,
After completion it gets passed up to those above for proofreading

Step by step the level of projects issued Increases untill they become worthy of Promotion

One big obstacle is obviously the tight schedule Experienced Translators have,
But through this model, New translators would not be bothering the "higher ups" for trivial issues because it will instead be addressed by those directly above their own level (Those in the Middle of the Hierarchy)

The only ones who will be able to consult the most senior ones will be those Who have already proven themselves through experience & accuracy

I believe such an initiative is not even that complicated to set-up. الله اعلم

 

many are. go to ketabpedia or archive.org and you find lots of manuscripts.

there is a fallacy here and the analogy is very poor.

"open source" means that you have access to the source which you can learn, use, develop without PAYING.
islamic knowledge has ALWAYS been open source. no one stopped you from learning from it, copying, citing, teaching.

free code does not grow on trees. it is 'effort' of thousands of QUALIFIED engineers. do you think the open source movement would stand a snowflake's chance in a nuke reactor if linus or the many brilliant software engineers were incompetent and bumbling coders who couldn't understand the internals? in one clip linus talks about assembly and how it is dear to his heart.

how many coders today can do assembly? and by the way, linux succeeded because linus declared himself to be a benevolent dictator for life. and he maintains a tight control on kernel distribution (at least until i last checked). almost all high profile FOSS projects are managed with stringent controls. else it would be a madhouse.

----
so it is not like "translators" or ulama are hoarding these manuscripts and not giving access to qualified and capable translators. it is there - anyone can pick up and do translation.

none of the high profile and top class open source software was built by people who didn't even know how to code. the analogy of "knowing how to code" in the translation arena is some level of knowing the source languages of books. this is my gripe. one should know some language, innit? c c++ python or even basic (who remembers this?) or whatever? if one doesn't know the language how will they code?

if one doesn't know arabic, how will they translate from arabic?

----

the key here is "developer"
trained and good are second level operators. you first need someone who is able to code.

====

and the idea of 10 developers, each one writing a line in the same code snippet is preposterous! [this one is a specialist in delimiters. that one can do variable declaration. this one is an expert in calling functions...]

but let us do this to islamic texts. sub'HanAllah.

 

unlike software, this is haram in islamic domain. if someone can game the system, they can get as many upvotes as possible. regardless, this doesn't work in an islamic discipline. fortunately, this tyranny of the majority didn't exist in the previous centuries - so that all the enjoyable and fun things that mujtahidin deemed haram - like mut'ah or such - would be easily downvoted and permissibility of mut'ah would be upvoted by the rest.

democracy is a joke - a man like trump or modi ought to be in jail. but they are in high office ruling the country.



do we do such crowdsourcing for our diseases? how about our personal property and wealth. let us put it on the internet for opinion and go with the most votes. no. our wealth, property, health is too important to mess with. so we go to the best doctors; and even wait for weeks for appointment - but the Hereafter?

it is child's play. let us have fun.

 

Maulana, I don't know whether you are including all the translation tools you use. If not, please list them here: text editing tools, lexicons, online and offline sources where one can find hadith and its grading in general, printing page format setup, and footer notes.

جزاك اللهُ

 

Not to discourage the idea, but there are fundamental differences between coding and language translation. Code tends to follow standardized structures and functions that don’t change much with context. While code can be refined, its purpose remains constant. Language, on the other hand, involves nuances such as idioms, synonyms, wordplay, rhythm, sarcasm, and underlying meanings. These elements vary widely depending on context, culture, and subject matter, making translation a more intricate task than coding.

For instance, when translating Arabic texts, even a basic translation requires an understanding of context, linguistic subtleties, and the specific field the text is addressing. The idea of using laypeople or moderately educated Muslims to translate Arabic sentences needs to account for these complexities. As Sheikh abu Hasan mentions, translation requires a deep knowledge of the language, its nuances, and the broader context.

Currently, for simple translations, we already have tools like Google Translate and LLMs that do a better job than many who are not fully proficient in both Arabic and English. However, when it comes to more specialized texts, such as books by renowned authors, context matters a lot. The better solution would be to upload a page from a specific book, where AI tools can do an initial translation. Then, educated and experienced translators can correct the machine’s output. But the issue here is that expert translators are already busy, and asking them to contribute to a public, democratic platform is problematic. The risk of having unreliable translations will be quite high.

 

On a slightly related point, I'm a software developer, my go to place for finding code to do my job are open source sites like github, stackoverflow etc.
There is good code, bad code but ultimately the "ijmaa" of trained developers pushes bad code to the bottom and good content to the top.

What if such a system existed for translating arabic manuscripts? What if the 10,000s of manuscripts gathering dust in collections across the world were simply digitised and released to the public. So that ANYONE, young or old, professor or student, could translate as little as a line or as much as a page. If you don't like a translation, downvote it, leave a comment, correct it, fork the repository to your own domain, push a change request, contribute your own version - words by word until they become lines, line to pages, pages to book, books to collections!
Billion $ corporations have been built off the back of free code, what if translation could be open sourced in the same way? Or am I thinking too far ahead...

 

Useful :

Tarjamah Kaise Karein vol 1
Tarjamah Kaise Karein vol 2

 

one ought to be very lucky to have dedicated volunteers - who care for the book and ulama like mawlana noori who can compare both arabic, urdu and english [i.e. translated] texts. we at ridawi press are, alHamdulillah, extremely fortunate. without their contribution, our books would be riddled with mistakes (not saying they aren't now, but the mistakes would be more. some would be extremely stupid ones).

so yes. proof reading and quality reviewers makes a whale of a difference.

 

in the past one had to be an accomplished teacher and scholar before becoming an author or translator. today, people translate without knowing basics! and one of the most irritating thing i notice in translations is mispronounced names. of course, we may all get one or two names wrong, especially if they are unfamiliar. but when it comes to hadith narrators, books of hadith, companions - one can look up commentaries to ensure correct pronunciation.

urdu translators had the luxury of just copying the arabic text - without worrying whether it was unays or anees; nu'aym or na'yeem. but english translators have to make that extra effort to get the names right.

i have noted the multiple pronunciations in threads where i mentioned firabri/farabri fuurak/fawrak jilani/gilani/jaylani.

====
it is mortifying to read some translations of famous works in arabic - translated into english, and it is clear that the translator relied upon the urdu work - and i have even seen some amusing cases where an inadvertent error by the urdu translator was faithfully carried onto english. and then the english of some translators is at the level of "learned as a second language".

so translators lack access to original works (being unable to read arabic/persian), do not have capability to disambiguate, clarify from source languages - have neither talent nor ability to write in english.

some young translators have contacted me and some even asked for advice. and my advice was for them to improve their ability to express by reading good literature. at the least, if an english translator has not read recent authors - journals, magazines, lengthy feature articles, (like those from atlantic), book reviews, explanatories and other kind of literature, their toolbox will be immensely limited.

here is a quick rule of thumb: if someone aspires to be a translator, they should try reading lord of the rings if they haven't read it. this is plain standard english. if fiction is not your cup of tea, try various popular non-fiction writers. irrespective of our disagreement with their political outlook, opinion pieces in the telegraph, the guardian etc are also helpful. even though it is not fashionable, classics are highly recommended for the mere reason that they are master classes in descriptive writing.

modern writing assumes a lot of things, and modern authors expect you to know; whereas in the classics, the author explains the scene and you build the image when you read the description - and to that end, they describe minute details. this enriches your toolbox, when you have to express things.

then the translator has to write for the AUDIENCE. not for himself. one can do a good job of translation without bothering about the audience, whether they would benefit from it. and i get stuck on this thing. else, translating is an easy job. usually on the forum, i translate on the fly - but i would not do this if i am doing it in a book. i would look up dozens of works, commentaries, etc.

---
w.i.p.

 

I think you're being too generous brother. They're not just bland and shoddy, they're very deliberately misleading and misrepresenting and actually prey on the readers lack of Arabic knowledge. A cursory look at something from Darus Salam publications will clearly highlight it to any English speaker who is minimally knowledgeable.

We also need translators to know about the below fitnahs too, and keep them in mind, and catch them out instantaneously

- the wahabis deliberate distortions and mistranslations, as well as now in Pakistan the tafzilis and closet rawafid, along with
- agents of the empire deliberate mistranslation to mould Islam into the narrative that the empire wants to hear. Examples like mark hanson, omar suleiman, yaqoubi, keller, and so many more. In fact, Ali jifry is a master of misleading and distorting within the Arabic language itself.

Maybe my rant might be against bid3ah itself, not translation per se as it's own field of work, but the two are still related.