taqi usmani on mazahib regarding mutashabihaat

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Noori, Jun 23, 2022.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i'm not too sure about shadee's biography, but if i remember well, he does seem to have a connection to nuh "intrinsically possible to lie" keller; and also seems to follow his modus operandi of being the pretentious & neutral arbitrator, playing duck and dive on issues like this. he will look for one liners from obvious doublespeak to avoid taking a solid stance, or sometimes he can criticize something but with the politically correct pretense of the western academic, like for example, will criticize something from the study Quran, but will probably withhold from stating the ruling of the Shariah that it is kufr or courageously taking a stance on the kafir hosein nasr by name.

    post # 25 of this thread didn't sit fully well with me, but i figured maybe the man is too busy to clarify his stance to mere mortals, but i can see why daniel haqiqatjou doesn't buy his clarifications.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this ability to side with truth is a rare commodity in our times.
    you will see that shaykh salek sides with 'barelwis' on almost all issues - and is candid about it.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    حفظت شيئا وغابت عنك أشياء

    preposterous, to say the least.

    when a person says: "jews and christians and muslims and atheists will all go to jannah. the most important thing is that muslims will go to jannah." so let us consider that person as sunni because - "the most important thing is..."

    it is terrible reasoning to selectively underline one point to exonerate the entire thing. the correct position is to attest that muslims will go to jannah, and to clarify that NONE OTHER but muslims will go to jannah.

    for example, the mu'tazilah used to call themselves ahl al-adl wa't tawHid. and by taw'hid, they insisted on rejecting the sifaat of Allah, because according to their interpretation, 'sifat' as professed by ahl al-sunnah contradicted tanzih.

    if mutazilah were in power in some country in our age and had bestowed a few awards upon taqiyyah usmani, he would gladly add a fifth madh'hab: that of ahl al-adl wa'l-tawHid, and our innocent friends would cheer them : "what is important it that we must attest to tawhid".

    or the qadiani who insists that he attests to the finality of the prophethood of sayyiduna muHammad sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, except that he also considers mirza as a prophet under the major prophethood of mustafa sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and thus does not contradict his being khaatam'un nabiyyin - because, qasim nanotvi (the elder of taqi usmani) has written that "even if a new prophet were to appear after the coming of sayyiduna muhammad, there will be no effect on his being the seal of prophets".

    our innocent cheerleaders will nod in approval: "what is important is they all attest to the finality of the prophethood of mustafa sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam."

    dr. shadee has ignored the fact that taqi usmani has legitimised ibn taymiyyah's "ityan, majee' harwalah, isba' etc. to be "haqiqi" which sunni ulama have been refuting for centuries as anthorpomorphism. and labelled it as a valid third madh'hab.

    wahabis insist that their interpretation - i.e. "haqiqi" is THE correct aqidah, even if runs amok in the fields of tashbih. all they have to say is "jismu'n laa ka'l ajsam" and they can be let off easily as belonging to ahl al-sunnah. all they have to do is claim that their aqidah is free from tashbih and ta'Teel.

    وكل يدعون وصال ليلى
    وليلى لا تقر لهم بذاكا


    now dr. shadee has no grounds to oppose or criticise ibn taymiyyah or his aqidah.
    if ibn taymiyyah's aqidah about sifat is a valid position of ahl al-sunnah, why argue? why refute? why write books critiquing it?

    it is clear that many people in our age are tied to personalities - and do not have the courage to dissociate from those who dissent from ahl al-sunnah. they will gladly compromise on their aqidah when faced with the difficult choice of taking a stand against celebrities of OUR age!

    conviction of one's belief and the courage to stand against the whole world, if necessary, will be found in the school of ahmad raza in our age.

    every one else is happy patting each others' backs.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.
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  4. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    who needs to be taught to read Arabic text properly, shaykh salik or dr. shadee?
  5. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    I asked this question to Shaykh Salek

    Attached Files:

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  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    yes, as long as dr. shadee just stopped there and did not read further, does he agree with "la shakka fi kawnihim (i.e. ibn taymiyyah and wahabiyyah) min ahlil haq"?

    does dr.shadee think that wahabi's anthropomorphic aqidah is of tanzih from tashbih and ta'atil?
  7. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is clear from the citation that imam ibn daqiq al-yid's statement is an explanation of the two madh'habs of tafwid and ta'wil and not a fourth madh'hab (the third being the deplorable anthropomorphist version which TU not only respects and considers valid, but also deems criticising it as impermissible).

    if it is indeed a fourth madh'hab, then one ought to explain how it differs from the standard ash'ari/maturidi view.

    even ibn hajar does not consider it as a 'fourth' opinion (TU has anyway marked it as his own opinion). however, he makes a very interesting observation in the last line of the commentary of this particular hadith (#7405).

    fath, v17p350.png

    the most appropriate position [wa'S Sawab] is: that one should withhold from [discussing/explaining] statements such as these and do tafwiD [submit to the Knowledge] of Allah in all such [apparently problematic words] and be content with bearing faith on all that Allah has made it obligatory - whether in His Book or that was uttered by the [blessed] tongue of His Prophet (sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam) -[and] attestation of that or believe in its transcendence in a generic manner.

    and Allah gives guidance.

    even though, there is no reason to give preference to tafwiD over ta'wil, [there is one difference and that is]: the person who does ta'wil (i.e., explains it as a metaphorical usage) does not insist that his explanation is THE correct explanation; contrary to the person who does tafwiD [i.e., who insists that the sifat should be left unexplained].

    there is a footnote by the wahabi editor, barrak which invalidates both tafwid/ta'wil and insists on literal interpretation as THE only correct method! though his claim is false, he does expose taqi usmani's "neither here, nor there - gather everyone and all's fair" methodology rather starkly:

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    see below for TU's (taqiyah usmani) quote from ibn hajar's fat'h al-bari, and which he terms as a 'fourth madh'hab'.

    given below is the snippet from fat'h; it appears that shaykhu'l islam ibn hajar summarised the para from ibn daqiq's aqidah (hence the variant wording):

    fathbari, v17p349.png

    ibn daqiq al-yid said in his aqidah:

    [we] say about the apparently problematic 'attributes' that: they are right and truth according to the meaning as Willed by Allah. those who interpret them (as metaphorical), we evaluate such an interpretation; if such an interpretation is compatible with the arabic language, we cannot deny it. and if it is far-fetched, we refrain (from accepting it) and reiterate that we attest to it consistent with (our fundamental belief of) transcendence.

    as for such statements whose apparent meaning is as [commonly] understood in the usage/speech of the arabs, we shall deem it as a valid explanation.

    for example: [az-zumar 39:56]

    عَلَى مَا فَرَّطْتُ فِي جَنْبِ اللَّهِ

    literally it means: "[woe and regret!] upon that which i transgressed in the side/flank of Allah" [janb meaning flank or the side or the direction; and it is impermissible to attribute Allah with something that indicates a limb or direction].
    however, this is commonly used in the idiom (of arabs) meaning: 'the right of Allah'. there is no hesitation in accepting such an explanation.

    so also the hadith in which the Messenger of Allah has said [which is literally translated as]:
    "the heart of a human (lit. adam's child) is between two fingers of Rahman"; [finger is the part of the body; Allah taala is transcendent from being described thus]

    here it is a (metaphorical) description, and it means: the heart of "humans are under the dispensation of the Divine Power of Allah and that which enters it."

    so also the qur'anic verse, in which Allah says [al-naHl, 16:26]:

    فَأَتَى ٱللَّهُ بُنۡیَـٰنَهُم مِّنَ ٱلۡقَوَاعِدِ

    literal meaning: "and Allah came to the foundation of their buildings";
    here it is an idiom that means: "Allah ta'ala destroyed the [foundations of their] buildings".

    and His saying:

    literally it means: "indeed we feed you for the countenance of Allah", [al-insan, 76:9 ]
    however, the meaning here is: "for the sake of Allah".

    and extrapolate on such examples.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  10. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    shaykh abdul qadir al husayn should see this, and other Arabic works by deobandies and nadawies.
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    around 6:46, sh. abdul qadir indicates that 'some of deobandis' do taqiyyah.

    the deos are open wahabis.

    he also mentions some of 'barelwis' saying things that please the wahabis - there is no barelwi who will do that except those on whom 'barelwi' is forcibly imposed by others such as tahiru'l qadri.

    and we are the foremost in refuting such turncoats and munafiqin. tahir himself detests the term barelwi. and we don't consider him a qadri anyway.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2022
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  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I would say taqiyyah shaytani
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the deobandi is nurtured with the water of nifaaq and trained in the skill of doublespeak.

    this man should rightfully be called taqiyyah usmani!

    only a deobandi can write with such confidence inspite of abject ignorance (jahl, in case you misinterpret) of kalam -

    taqiyyah usmani not only sneaks ibn taymiyyah's anthropomorphic views as "third opinion of salaf", he also repeats the madh'hab of tafwid as a fourth madh'hab reported by ibn daqiq! the poor man has no clue of the meanings of the first two madhahib of tafwiD/ta'wil!

    someone should tag sh. sayid foudeh.

    imam ibn daqiq was an ash'ari and in his aqidah, he explained the two madh'habs of ahl al-sunnah thus:


    and thus we say about the words that are unclear [al-alfaz al-mushkilah / apparently problematic] that occur in the Book (the Qur'an) and the sunnah (the hadith) - transcendent is Allah from every such meaning that does not befit His Glory.

    [concerning such apparently problematic words] we believe that they are right and true [Haqq, Sidq] in the manner that He Willed and His Messenger intended.

    if any of such words are interpreted by someone, then if his interpretation is consistent with linguistic usage in the arabic language and thus it is [commonly] understood in their speech [i.e. the arabs], we will not reject it nor deem such a person a heretic.

    if it is a far-fetched explanation, we will refrain from it [tawaqqafna] and consider it unlikely and we turn back to the basic principle of faith concerning its meaning and we attest to its being right in the manner that Allah has Willed and that it should be understood in the context of Divine Transcendence (tanzih).


    either taqiyah usmani didn't understand the meaning of tafwid as explained by ash'ari mutakallimun, or he wanted to act smarter than everyone else and find out a fourth madh'hab.

    any subject that requires intelligence and critical thinking is beyond the capacity of deobandis. they are good enough for copy-paste and blind following of their elders. so they should stick to "they said, he said". especially in kalaam, their biggest maulvis commit blunders in basic definitions - taqiyyah usmani is after all, a small fish.

    kya piddi, kya piddi ka shorba. [inki jama'at ke bade bade zaagh lad-khada gaye aur kaaw kaaw karte rah gaye...


    PS: after i checked ibn daqiq's aqidah, i was intrigued and checked fat'h al-bari from where taqiyyah usmani cites the passage for his 'fourth madh'hab'. we will see that shortly. in sha'Allah.

    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  14. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    taqi usmani-a well known deobandi mufti- considers ibn taymiyyah's and salafi's anthropomorphic aqidah a valid position among ahlussunah. arab ulama, e.g dr. shadi and saeed fudah should take note, it is in Arabic-their mother tongue

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