Tim Winters' false accusation on Alahazrat

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by AMQadiri, May 7, 2021.

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  1. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    In such case these Jews should not expect the Mercy of Allaah, however i think you are thinking about Tel Aviv or Rome central but those in cut off communities say between Moscow and Mangolia, they may have faith in Allaah (through a past jewish or christian dawah) and not have rejected any Prophets, or the odd one in Nepal who just believes in The One (Allaah)
     
  2. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    Today no such Jew exists because all modern Jews reject Sayyiduna Isa Alayhis Salaam. If they accepted Sayyiduna Isa Alayhis Salaam, they would be Christians.
     
  3. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    This discussion and it does expand beyond Abdullah Hakim Murad sahib, centers on people who simply believe in Allaah and have not rejected any Prophets of Allaah. The whole subject does need more discussion because many jews and some christians may have near correct belief in Allaah and may have adequate claim to not have been given the correct infomation regarding the Final Messenger SallAllaahu alaihi wa alihi wa sallam or have heard of him and this could possibly effect a very large number of them. My personal understanding is that such large numbers of non Muslims are not included, only some fortunate ones and that they may be from the human dispora rather than just from the previous ummahs adherents. Allaah knows best
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    That hadith is not an exquisite new discovery by Timmy boy. I dunno about the UK, but where I come from, we hear it from our childhood. Scholars of hadith, fiqh, kalam, and all the Islamic sciences have said that the 'belief in oneness of Allah' necessitates believing in Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. There is clear nass of the Quran on this.

    It's Ramadan, review your Quranic translations regarding bani Isareel believing in some prophets and disbelieving in others, as well as the verses that state denial of the Prophet 3alaihis salam is utter kufr.

    So, no cigar!
     
  5. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    This doesnt stick on him. A recent thread claimed something similar about him and in isolation some of the quotes from him did look as if he was claiming non muslims would be forgiven but his actual position is they wont but in isolation certain ones who believe in the Oneness of Allaah may be (there is a hadith which supports this - the luckiest person to enter Jannah hadith). His sayings on the subject were part of broader discussion rather can claims that all will be forgiven.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  6. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    Yes it is, in my opinion. What do you think?

    Btw I dont have any bad feelings for Shaykh Abdullah Hakim Murad, i can see his effort as a Muslim Brother and a Shaykh who can teach. Differences can be settled over discussion and may Allaah forgive us all
     
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  8. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    Is this a serious question...?
     
  9. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    Can you reference those statements of his here? Reason is because many of our Sunnis give him the "he's non-desi so he doesn't know the issues in the subcontinent" card, but I want to show them that there are worse things he has said that are not tied to countries/continents
    Wa 'alaykumusalaam wa rahmatullah, the timestamp is in the actual link. What I wrote was by mistake, I think I originally meant to say 47:05
     
  10. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    Can you reference those statements of his here? Reason is because many of our Sunnis give him the "he's non-desi so he doesn't know the issues in the subcontinent" card, but I want to show them that there are worse things he has said that are not tied to countries/continents.
     
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Btw, Tim winters has bigger issues than just appreciation or non-appreciation of Ala Hazrat. He's the mark hanson of the UK and has made multiple kufr statements that he didn't repent or backtrack from.
     
  12. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2021
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  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    This is such an ignorant comment I can't tell you! Has he read Abhaas e Akhirah, Kawkabatu'sh Shihabiyyah, Sall al-Suyuf al-Hindiyyah, Atayib al-Tahani, etc?

    Alahazrat is the most cautious in takfir. Anyone who hasn't read his monographs like those above and his fatawa on the issue need to keep their mouth shut.

    Does Winters know Alahazrat wasn't the first to make takfir of Nanotwi, Gangohi and Anbethwi? Does he know that 33 ulama of Haramayn also made takfir?
     
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  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I agree with @Abdullah Ahmed

    This jahil mutlaq suffers from the superiority complex of all those (predominantly white) western orientalists of the west who think after a few days of superficial studies in deen, they can now judge Muslims of native Islamic lands and reform and reteach Islam to them, as if they're some sort of Islamicized governor generals newly appointed over colonial lands. They speak with arrogance and authority on any matter as if they know the matter inside out when in fact they're still due to sit at the feet of black and brown scholars of Africa, middle east and Asia for another 200 yrs before they open their pie-holes. (Again, black or brown is culture-specific, not skin tone dependent. white skinned Algerians or Turks are still black or brown in this context)

    This mardood is bluffing and lying trying to maintain an air of intellectual grandeur and massive knowledge. Truth is Ala Hazrat was soft and tried his level best to bring the devbandi shayatin back to Islam. His reactions certainly weren't knee jerk like this shaytan Tim winters alludes to. I don't know about the situation with daryabadi, but between erring on his side or Ala Hazrat's and knowing his track record in blatantly lying, it's a no brainer whose side I'd take.
     
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  15. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    This Angraiz accepted "Islam" at the hands of the tablighi-jamaat (based on his own narrative). So Im sure his mind was poisoned against Ala Hazrat since his initiation.

    Whats sad is that he acts like an authority and expert on the Indian Subcontinent and its history, yet he has never bothered to look into the truth/ real reason for the deobandi-Sunni divide. And his dismissive/arrogant tone towards Ala Hazrat also reeks of the same putrid attitude displayed by other orientalists as well those convert-"muslim" orientalists who became muslim and now are qualified to teach Islam to native Muslims better than the scholars of their own lands. (aka Nuh Keller).

    (I have very harsh things to say by just looking at this guys "shakal." Especially after hearing his blatant nonsense. But I will refrain since its Ramadan).
     
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  16. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    It presupposes Imam Ahmad Raza takfired first and never thought later but Yes AHM often does present Imam Ahmad Raza Khan like that, like I said I consider him deobandi from the outset. I once listened to his talk on sub continent Ulema and he did not include Imam Ahmad Raza in it although the deobandi akabirs were included.

    I think Abu Hasan can present the facts on this case about what actually was said and then AHM's claim can be put to the test. I doubt a proper fatwa of Kufr was issued although the person was obviously upon kufr at the time but assuming he died upon faith a fatwa of Kafir would then be wrong but I highly doubt that was the case
     
  17. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    This presupposes Alahazrat takfired first and thought later. There's the gaping assumption he did nothing in the interim between being aware of the issue and issuing the fatwa of takfir. That's a caricaturized representation of Alahazrat and the burden of proof lies on the accuser.
     
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  18. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member

    AHM is looking at it from the pov of bringing people back into the fold not that the black and white of the situation at the specific time was anything different to what Imam Ahmad Raza said.

    The question which really comes out of the AHM comments is if a softer approach to kufriyat can be advantageous. He means to say Imam Ahmad Raza should not have passed the fatwa of kufr on deobandi elders. Afaik AHM is deobandi and deobandi taught to some extent.

    In some cases if the person came back into the fold yes but they dont always come back so no point in such cases to water down or muddy the waters on kufr (imo)
     
  19. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    "Ahmad Raza Khan, who is never hesitant to hurl anathema at someone calls him kafir."

    Around 47:47.

    Yet he mentions that the same person identifies himself as a "Rationalist" instead of a Muslim on forms that have a field for religious affiliation.

    Honestly, for all the criticisms people give Barelvis for "not doing anything", have they once considered that these critics didn't do their homework and actually look into the context of fatawa? Or is deobandi poison sweeter to them?
     
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  20. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

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