Hamza Yusuf defends Dante

kattarsunni · Apr 2, 2012

Hundreds of wicked, immoral, accursed and abominable Muslims of high standing, Islamic judges, preachers, teachers and important personalities nowadays speak, write and print derogatory remarks, but nobody is there to check them. If somebody does so, he, in the eyes of some so called civilized persons, is uncivil, uncultured and violent.
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Imam Ahmad Rida Khan (Allah have mercy on him)

AbdalQadir · Apr 2, 2012

iman
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apparently for some idiots, it's damaging to one's iman to speak against a charlatan who claims to be sultan al-awliyaa and yet asks the pope (someone who badmouthed our beloved Prophet, 3alaihis salam) to pray for him...

but for these idiots, there is no damage to one's iman to defend a kafir who wrote rubbish against the Prophet, and such a defender of dante must be defended for his defense of dante at any cost, because he offers a white liberal secularist "version" of "islam" to all butlers with an inferiority complex.

if that's the case, then really these guys are being unfair to ashraf ali thanvi based on his skin color!

Noori · Apr 2, 2012

nj you better leave this forum, i had a little soft corner for you in my heart but sorry not any more. yes, it doesn't matter to you, which is fine, but what should matter to you is your iman.

don't waste your time replying every other post and digging your own pit. in my opinion what sherkhan has suggested is really good and enough for you to realize where you are heading. either you should quit this forum or before you post anything else try to do what he has suggested.

Unbeknown · Apr 2, 2012

The 'Caucasians' have always considered themselves to be a superior race, no one needs to be reminded of the ordeal that the 'negros' have gone through (the utterly rational, openminded and scientific, James Watson, has some interesting things to say).

http://www.theroot.com/views/science-racism:

Having spent the past three decades studying racist discourse in the West (starting with my Ph.D. dissertation on the Enlightenment), I know that such conclusions—say, about an entity called "Jewish intelligence"—would deleteriously affect me as a black person because it would reinforce stereotypes about Jewish people being genetically superior to us, and that such a conclusion would reinforce stereotypes about black people being inherently less intelligent than other members of the human community. If such differences in intelligence were purported to have a genetic basis, as David Duke proclaimed on his Web site with such naked glee, all of the social intervention in the world could have only so much effect. (Head Start? Why bother, when nature is to blame.) Sooner or later, in a time of increasing economic scarcity, members of these supposedly "different" or "lesser" ethnic groups or genetic populations could very well find their life possibilities limited and perhaps even regulated. Who among us can doubt that this would be true?

Likewise, I worry even more that Dr. Watson confessed to me that "we shouldn't expect that different persons have equal intelligence, because we don't know that. And people say that these should be the same [that is, that all human beings, that all members of different "racial" groups, should have the same basic range and potential for development of intelligence genetically]. I think the answer is we don't know." And later, he remarked in passing that "we're not all the same," by which he meant genetically. Rest assured that in the very near future, some scientist somewhere will claim to have proven this through our genes, and that claim will be deeply problematic for the future development of black people in American society.

As I drove away from Cold Spring Harbor, I realized that my conversation with Dr. Watson only confirmed something I already, with great trepidation, have come to believe: That the last great battle over racism will be fought not over access to a lunch counter, or a hotel room, or to the right to vote, or even the right to occupy the White House; it will be fought in a laboratory, in a test tube, under a microscope, in our genome, on the battleground of our DNA. It is here where we, as a society, will rank and interpret our genetic difference.
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Its well known that the many upper-caste hindus (Aryans) still despise the lower castes (dravidians).

Then we have the Arabs who have, since the time of 'jahiliyya', looked down upon the non-Arabs as 'ajam' (dumb). We still have konkani muslims (known to have descended from the arabs: ignorance of arabic notwithstanding) consider those known as momins/sheikhs as 'inferior' to them.

Only two things contribute to a change in these attitudes:

1) socio-politico-economic trends.
2) islamic knowledge.

Those who are untouched by these, continue to be rascists (whichever race they be from).

That is why the Holy Prophet (peace be upon Him) emphasized at His farewell pilgrimage:

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly.
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kattarsunni · Apr 2, 2012

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745

kattarsunni · Apr 2, 2012

What Sayyid Muhammad bin Alawi rahimahu Allah is talking about is the tribulations that happen after the death of real Ulama.

From the Babar Ahmad page:

Babar Ahmad is a 38 year old British Muslim and the longest detained-without-charge British detainee held as part of the global ‘war on terror’. In December 2003 Babar was arrested at his London home under anti-terror legislation. By the time he reached the police station Babar had sustained at least 73 forensically recorded injuries, including bleeding in his ears and urine. Six days later he was released without charge.

In August 2004 Babar was re-arrested in London and taken to prison pursuant to an extradition request from the US under the controversial, no-evidence-required, Extradition Act 2003. The US has alleged that in the 1990s Babar was a supporter of “terrorism”. Babar denies any involvement in terrorism. He has now been in prison for more than seven years even though he has not been charged in the UK, despite 141,000 British citizens signing a petition to put him on trial in the UK.
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kattarsunni · Apr 2, 2012

Those oil rich Arabs are not Sunni. They are either Wahabi, Shia or secular like you.

The Sunni Arabs I love are the like of the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEwU7BTkFRs

learn to love yourself first. at least in england you are treated the same as
any other british citizen.
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Not entirely true:

http://www.freebabarahmad.com/

kattarsunni · Apr 2, 2012

my line is this: people should be free to do what they like and say what they like as long as it doesn't harm others.
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How do you define 'harm'?

Were the cartoons harmful? Is Dante's 'Inferno', and Rushdie's 'Verses' harmful?

naqshbandijamaati · Apr 2, 2012

kattarsunni said:

I love Sunni Arabs.
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they don't love you back i'm afraid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSLWSizwZG8&feature=player_embedded

ANALYSIS: Gulf excess and Pakistani slaves —Rafia Zakaria

Pakistanis themselves, mired in denial and ever-ready to engage in the pantomime of pretending to be Arab, are inured to this reality of Arab racism. Easily appeased with the promise of Gulf jobs when their own country is in shambles they consider any paltry thankless employment a godsend

“We need slaves to build monuments,” says an Iraqi engineer living in Abu Dhabi to a reporter from the Guardian. In the published report he goes to add that he would never use the metro if it wasn’t segregated since “we would never sit next to Pakistanis and Indians because of their smell”.

The dismal condition of Pakistani labourers in the Gulf States is well known and the above statements are merely reflections of the deep-seeded and overtly racist attitudes of Arabs in the Gulf and otherwise towards Pakistanis.

The same Guardian report also details how Pakistani slave labourers work up to eighteen hours a day and often live twenty to a room without any ventilation and with only a single bathroom for several hundred people. Several do not see their families for four to ten year periods, unable to afford the airfare home and many die on the job.

Without any insurance scheme families are often not notified of deaths for months and the only compensation available to them is through an underground system through which other workers donate thirty dirham each which is then collected and donated. The strictly segregated society means that the rich Arabs never come across the lowly Pakistani workers who build their roads, clean their floors and drive their cars.

But in recent years, the oil-rich barons of the Gulf have found a new use for slave labour that goes beyond cleaning bathrooms and picking trash off the streets of Dubai. A recent statement issued by Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke in Brussels revealed that the Taliban are being funded by individuals from the Gulf States. Secretary Holbrooke said: “The Taliban receive more funding from the Gulf States than they do from the narcotics trade”.

As has been reported by several Pakistani newspapers, this means that the sources of foreign funding for the Taliban are greater than the approximate USD100 million they receive from the narcotics trade based on poppy cultivation inside Afghanistan.

While Holbrooke was careful to note that the money is not coming from governments but rather from individuals, his statement, based on credible reports tracing wire transfers from the region, illustrates a new use that rich Gulf Arabs have found for expendable Pakistani lives.

Similar to the onerous burden of cleaning one’s own bathrooms, or drilling one’s own oil or building one’s own monuments, the task of fighting one’s own holy war has proven to be far too burdensome for Arabs intoxicated with the seemingly never-ending largesse of a resource-fuelled economy. Smelly Pakistanis, the Arabs have discovered, are not only good enough to build crass monuments to consumerism but also to fight misguided holy wars that destroy nations and eviscerate thousands of innocent lives.

Holbrooke’s statement is not the only basis for believing that the Taliban are receiving support from the Gulf States. In May of this year, the United Nations sent out an international appeal for aid for the nearly 2 million people displaced by the fighting in the tribal areas and the NWFP. While the US has pledged USD320 million for the IDPs and the EU has pledged up to USD121 million, no significant pledges have been made from the Gulf States.

This strange dichotomy in which our supposed Muslim brethren have turned their back on the suffering of the people of Swat, Buner and Dir makes far more sense in light of new information that illustrates that in picking sides, rich sheikhs from the Gulf have chosen to place their bets with the Taliban rather than with the Pakistani soldiers fighting them.

Pakistanis themselves, mired in denial and ever-ready to engage in the pantomime of pretending to be Arab, are inured to this reality of Arab racism. Easily appeased with the promise of Gulf jobs when their own country is in shambles they consider any paltry thankless employment, even if it denies them basic human rights, a godsend.

Ironically, the standards they expect non-Muslim countries like the United States and the European Union to uphold in terms of equal employment, egalitarian laws and freedom of expression are all abandoned when it comes to the assessment of Arab nations. No attention is given for example to the Arabs’ discriminatory employment practices that pay a Pakistani a fraction of what is paid to a European citizen for the same engineering job.

Some workers make as little as 400 dirhams a month, barely able to afford meals while surrounded by unimaginable excess. Even less emphasis is received by the condescending and racist attitudes of Gulf law enforcement authorities that regularly detain immigrant workers without any legal process and routinely beat and abuse them.

All this injustice, perhaps because it is committed by fellow Muslims, who make a great pretence at religious devotion, is somehow unthinkingly and unquestioningly forgiven. The fact that such discrimination overtly and blatantly flouts any minimal allegiance to the concept of the Islamic ummah is never even considered.

This latest news presents an urgent challenge to the apathy of those Pakistanis unwilling to acknowledge the reality of Arab discrimination and disdain toward South Asians. The fact that Gulf sheikhs are contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to the Taliban who are bombing schools, marauding villages and devastating the economy and infrastructure of our nation while shutting their coffers to the IDPs languishing in tents should irk even the most minimal nationalist.

More pressingly, it should expose the duplicity of our Arab overlords who, while freely engaging in debaucheries behind their castle walls now wish to use the Taliban to impose a virulent and dogmatic form of Islam on the poor smelly Pakistanis.

Sending money to fuel a war that is depleting Pakistan’s already meagre resources, turning young men and boys into human bombs and transforming Pakistani cities into battlegrounds exposes their desire to condemn Pakistan into oblivion.
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learn to love yourself first. at least in england you are treated the same as
any other british citizen.

sherkhan · Apr 1, 2012

nJ said:

I'm having a terrible fight with some brothers on another forum because I am defending Hamza Yusuf and they consider him a deviant perrenialist!
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Sorry, I have to weigh in here. Yes brother AQ, I remember that yN incident. I felt sorry for nJ then, but now it feels like my sympathy for nJ then were misplaced.

Now nJ, that's (begging for help on yN) really pathetic. I frankly can't add more than what brother aH, AQ and KS have already added, with bluntness, with emotional tugs etc. All I can say is that you should stop thinking. Put your pen down (i.e. give the keyboard a break) lest you slip into uttering something that may prove to be a millstone around your neck on that Day. Just listen/read what others have to tell you, even if you think you're right and they are wrong. Forget about defending mark hanson, dante etc.; just care about your own self. Don't put your own imaan on the line for others who don't even know or care how gallantly you defended their honour.

If, on the other hand, you are still feeling wronged, then just go away for your own sake. I feel sorry for brother aH who's sucked into counselling nJ when his time could be put to better use.

naqshbandijamaati · Apr 1, 2012

ks,
you implied it with your comment that anyone who defends hamza yusuf on this issue is also a kafir...so don't pretend to be slick.

yeh, unlike you, i admit at one time i used to criticise the people on the other forum on here and that was when i was a narrow-minded barelvi zealot and in turn one person on there called me names but that was in the past.

i don't hide my views. i don't endorse any of these things myself but i believe
others should be free to indulge in them if they want and its only up to Allah to judge them. the people of the other forum are aware of my secularism thank you.

anyway, why do you visit that 'tafzili' forum anyway? shouldn't you keep away from it?

--
i merely quoted a verse of miyan sahib. it doesn't mean i believe in the idea of a high and low caste.
--

my line is this: people should be free to do what they like and say what they like as long as it doesn't harm others.

and in the UK you pretty much can at the moment.

kattarsunni · Apr 1, 2012

What about hudud punishments?

What about gay 'marriages'?
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Where does NJ draw the line?

What about Salman Taseer, the Danish cartoons and Rushdie?

Do these types have the right of expression in your utopia secular liberal social democracy???

kattarsunni · Apr 1, 2012

The only 'kammi' around here is NJ. NJ is behaving like a 'na'iy' (barber caste).

The reason for this is that you have lied regarding us on the 'other' forum. You have written:

it is a classic of Western literature. People began to intimate that HY was a kafir and when I tried to defend him I was called all sorts of things from vile, hell-bound, pathetic, Uncle Tom etc.
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Who is calling him a 'kafir' here?

If you were so brave place the actual 'defense' of Dante on that forum, where you once were called a 'choora' and a 'toilet cleaner'.

Mention your views on clubs, pubs, drink, homosexuality, and a host of other issues, as well as your stance as a secularist.

AbdalQadir · Apr 1, 2012

lol, other than describing his own reality (also a rarity for them), it's interesting to see an englishman who believes in "low-caste" and kammi kameen

naqshbandijamaati · Apr 1, 2012

So, you people are so obsessed with me you follow me around on other forums too?!! Sad or what! But I've added the link to the Hamza lecture...

happy now?
aawww...there's a good boy.

naqshbandijamaati · Apr 1, 2012

Faraz, takalluf ko ikhlaas mat samajho
dost hota nahin har haath milanay wala!

--
and to quote Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh rahmatullah alayhi

Kammi naal kii dosti tey saanDu naal kii saak
Kutta nawaaliyoN kadhii nee hondaa paak

which means for those who don't know Punjabi

What is the point of friendship with someone from a low-caste or the husband
of your wife's sister?
If you give a dog a bath--it still will not become pure!

abu Hasan · Apr 1, 2012

NJ: at least have the decency
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tum ko hai un sey hayaa ki ummeed
jo nahin jaantey hayaa kya hai

kattarsunni · Apr 1, 2012

NJ: at least have the decency to mention on other forums why we are disputing. That is if the following post was placed by you on yanabi:

assalamu alaykum!

I'm having a terrible fight with some brothers on another forum because I am defending Hamza Yusuf and they consider him a deviant perrenialist!
My question is: why do so many Sunnis from the Indo-Pakistani region or from there ethnically but grown up in the West hate him so much?
Is it because he promotes a version of Islam which is free from their narrow-minded prejudices?
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If it is you, then at least be honest. Place a link to the blog containing the Dante issue.

kattarsunni · Apr 1, 2012

yes, yes -- lahore and many other muslim cities already have them--and yes.
[ditto]. since all these vices already exist i think its better to regulate them and keep them confined to one area of a city.

of course good muslims won't go there but those who want to will be able to.
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What about hudud punishments?

What about gay 'marriages'?

kattarsunni · Apr 1, 2012

I love Sunni Arabs.

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