Hamza Yusuf defends Dante

Then present a proposition (not preposition). I'll give a few:

1 munafiq

2 diseased

3 agent

4 deviant apologist

5 a confused individual

6 a genuine mistake (a bit common in this case)

 

I agree Dante was a kafir but I don't agree with the second part of your preposition.

 

Lets get to a 'common ground' on the main point of our 'discussion'.

Dante is a kafir of the worst type.

Only a munafiq, a person with a diseased soul will think and defend such an individual.

Agreed?

 

It is the residents of these areas who protect Masajid when they are attacked by kafirs.

It is these areas where a Muslim can walk safely. These areas have gatherings of dhikr.

Many awliya live in Sparkbrook and Sparkhill. Sufi Abdullah Sahib being one of them.

By the way, I have read 'The Divine Comedy', and many of the books you mention.

 

sorry bro i meant to write,"Subhan Allah, Miyan" -- the miyan does not refer to Allah here (note the comma).

(Although its common parlance in Indo-Pak to call Him Allah-Miyan...this is a perfect example of what i mean by the maulvis (and maulv-types) living in their own little world.)

 

yeh clever-clogs, notice the question-mark "?"

no one is denying that not so long ago "English" meant white and christian.
hello,smell the coffee. england and its definition of englishness has changed.
yeh, sure there are racist twats about but they are a minority--the only racist party currently hasn't got a single seat in parliament. [i'm talking BNP]
but if muslims --and most muslims here are 'pakis'-- keep on insisting on doing everything there own way and not integrating then more and more people will start to hate us. is that what you want?
read The English by Jeremy Paxman. (you might learn a thing or two.)
The vice admiral of the English navy is a British-Pakistani Muslim; Sayyida Warsi is the chairman of the Conservative Party; Saj Mahmood, Amir Khan,
Rageh Omar, Monty Panesar--etc. ALL are nowadays considered English. Not to mention the whole plethora of football stars who are BLACK but considered English.

I didn't mean to use ghetto in a derogatory way--(but it is true that places like Sparkhill and Sparkbrook are horrible places to live--i've been there--thankfully I lived in Edgbaston!)--but its not healthy to create isolated communities. you have to accept our future is in england. it is our home and will be for our future generations so how long will you cling to this sense of 'the other'. seriously, read Tariq Ramadan - he specialises in this kind of thing.
We don't want race riots like they have in America...or do you?

 

that's not true Talib -- yes, he wasn't madrassah educated but he had much more knowledge of islam than most mullahs.

 

how can he be an authority in Islam when he wasn't even an aalim-e-deen?

 

From Deenport:

 

Just for you NJ:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01flnyq/How_God_Made_the_English_A_White_and_Christian_People/

A documentary called "How God Made the English -
3. A White and Christian People?"

This was recently on BBC.

 

Please don't use this term for Allah Ta'ala.

 

No one has or is calling Hamza Yusuf a kafir.

No one is insinuating that you are a kafir.

Dante insulted RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wasallam.

He used despicable language.

No one should defend him, in any way or form.

Any one who makes excuses for the one who defends him should not do so.

Stop making silly excuses for him NJ. If you continue doing so it is not good for your eiman.

 

me:

to which ah replied

to which i reply,
you say that because of your intellectually servile mind which is afraid to stand up to arabo-islamic influence or have the courage to talk back to the arab man. it is pretty obvious now that you have an inferiority complex and view the arab with starstruck eyes.

perhaps i came to this conclusion through deep thought? that probably never occured to you lot...would you really want to live in a country/society where you could be locked up for THOUGHT CRIMES? but that is precisely what you advocate. an islamic state run by the likes of the people on this forum would just be like the taliban-run afghanistan except with the label 'Sunni-Barelvi'.

you insult all those who have done so much for sunni islam in the last two decades or so: hamza yusuf,abdul hakim murad, tariq ramadan, shaykh nazim,
shaykh kabbani, martin lings abu bakr siraj uddin, sayyid yahya ninowy, gf haddad, habib ali jifri, abdullah ibn bayyah, pir naseeruddin naseer, hossein nasr etc. etc.

all of these people are agents/enemies of islam/deviant....yet you're all correct.subhan Allah miyaN!

--
Oh, you lot might not rate Iqbal very highly but many scholars of the subcontinent and millions of pakistanis and others do consider him an authority figure.

 

abu hasan aka sunniobserver aka ...

well then perhaps i should leave and this time for good. this forum cannot accept any difference of views at all and some of you resort to name calling and even are bringing my late father into it which is despicable. and you have defined yourselves as the arbiters of who is sunni and who is not--yeh yeh you're going to say actually we only follow the classical scholars. but it is only your interpretation of them that is correct--everyone else is a deviant/ghair-sunni/perrenialist/rafidi/tafzili/enemy of islam/etc. only you guys are sunnis.

and all this bile for what? that i didn't rush to call Hamza Yusuf a kafir and i pointed out some home truths--yes they were generalisations but tell me they were wrong. you don't even live in the UK but are an expert on birmingham!
you're just an indian who doesn't even live in india man and i admit you know a lot of stuff about islam but you act as if only your opinion on anything is the gospel truth and god forbid if someone should disagree.

you guys remind me of the frogs who have never left the well and kill the
frog who ventures outside and tells them that there is a whole world outside
the well...

--
yes there is racism KS no one denied that but it certainly is a minority and it certainly isn't acceptable anymore like it was in past times. Calling me an Uncle Tom is easy but I probably know more about pakistan and pakistani culture than you do mate!
yes i have white friends and i have paki friends and religious friends and irreligious friends. but none of them display the sanctimonious arrogance of the 'pious' which you guys do. go and live in saudi for a bit and see how they treat you--when they treat you like crap tell them 'no no you are my muslim brother' and see them laugh in your face. if you lived in the real world you'd see that what the mullah preaches on the minbar and what happens in reality are often two different things. i am not an uncle tom but i also am not the type of hypocrite paki muslim who badmouths everything about the country he lives in and yet constantly wishes it ill. i always say, 'yaara if pakistan is so important to you get the heck out of here and go and live there.' then you come up with all sorts of rubbish like 'no no all the land belongs to Allah etc.'
Because of people like you ordinary Muslims -- who may well be practising and pious--are seen with suspicion.

--
i am not advocating for dante for god's sake. it's a poem by an italian poet centuries ago. i don't want anyone to read it at my funeral - talk about exaggeration!-- i would like people to read the kalam of pir mihr ali shah at my funeral and that of mian sahib. unless you're insinuating i'm not even a muslim anymore....

--
the only person who didn't make personal attacks was AQ and to his question 'are you suggesting we integrate?' - i say 'yes' -- that doesn't mean we have to suddenly become alcoholics and it doesn't mean we have to give up our women to the natives--no one is demanding that--but it does mean not isolating yourselves...

otherwise, emigrate. why are you living in dar al kufr anyway if you abhor it so much? it is the double standards of your type of muslims at play again. one rule for you in their country but another rule if they are in your country.

--

anyway, i didn't expect this thread to take this turn but there you go.

if you want to ban me you may.

 

Faraz advertising Dante talk

http://seekersguidance.org/blog/2011/02/earl-lectures-2011-keynote-lecture-shaykh-hamza-yusuf/

 

very sadly, that's right.

i know of WHITE IRISH converts who despise mark hanson.

there are those who convert to islam wholeheartedly and without comparing them to sahaba literally, just like them, they too wholeheartedly owe their loyalties to Islam and Muslims and WISH and TRY THEIR LEVEL BEST to grab islamic knowledge and culture that relates to the Sunnah. i can count at least 3 or 4 such converts i know personally

then there are those who become Muslim but only to miss their 'former' affinities, cultures, and values and seek to "reform" Islam to conform to those standards (hanson is the leader of the pack)

and again, with arabs, desis, turks, indos etc. in the west, there are those who have this same inferiority complex and they follow people like hanson in droves, with pretentious masha Allah group hugs

and yet again within arabs, desis, turks, etc. there's us taxi drivers and kebabci's, and filafel take-away owners who spit at people like hanson

 

rather you feel comfortable with hamza or winters because they represent a culture that you admire and desperately wish to belong to.

 

You are not 'English'. You are a Paki.

English are people from the Anglo-Saxon race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2mjvFNOwmc

 

you say that because of your intellectually servile mind which is afraid to stand up to western influence or have the courage to talk back to the white man. it is pretty obvious now that you have an inferiority complex and view the white european with starstruck eyes.

you are just like one of those animals in the animal farm. mindlessly repeat the mantra of those who want to control you and valiantly defend those values.

it is clear that you haven't understood it.

iqbal may be an authority to you, but not for us. he was a good poet with an addled mind. too much of western philosophy and superficial knowledge of islam does not make him an authority in islam.

evidently, you try to pass off superficial knowledge as profundity. your considering something or not is of little value - from your recent dalliances we are not even sure whether you properly know zaruriyat e din.

same applies to you. your ignorance is astounding, notwithstanding your claims of being a western intellectual.

for what use? one should read, comprehend and make use of that knowledge. you act as if you are smarter than the author of shifa and try to present yourself as more humane and 'progressive'. many open freethinkers are better like you confused lot - who want the label of tradition, but cannot imagine life without the slavery of white europeans.

see? being english is more important to you than being a muslim.

i don't know why you think you are superior just because you sit with white men and value their culture? i have high esteem for an illiterate taxi-driver in birmingham (or anywhere else) who is a good muslim even if he doesn't know who shakespeare is; i would gladly embrace him anywhere anytime. and i don't even care to shake the hand of the biggest shakespeare scholar there is, if he is a kafir.

same thing for you. except that read something about islam from muslims, not your fancy fons-vitae friends. you must understand NJ that most of us do not have your craving of being accepted among white europeans and thus espouse their culture.

because of confused people like you, who want to be identified as progressive europeans and islamic traditionalists at the same time. unlike religious muslims who will plainly tell you that regardless of everything, it is islam that they value most.

look at yourself. how difficult is to throw dante? i have read european literature by the cartloads - classic and modern; fiction and non-fiction - but i have never felt any interest to read dante and i don't wish to read it either.

generalisation again - even those people who conduct polls meet more people than you do to make a statement.

i had not reached until this statement when i wrote all that above. you have proved my point.

and you can make a will to be buried in the same grave as tariq ramadan. if those are your admired ones, why do you want to come here? you are already a pariah on our forum - perhaps no other forum tolerates a fickle ignoramus who acts as if he is some goethe.

it is a mercy that your father passed away before he had to see you in this state.

as if mouthing a couple of poems make you a sufi. the sufism you prefer, tainted by preferences of WASP culture is not found here.

-----
seriously NJ, don't you shudder at the prospect that if you die tomorrow, nobody will read dante at your funeral?

 

You Sir, are an Uncle Tom.
The likes of you are like their spiritual forefather Dante and Mir Jafar;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Jafar

Your brown nose, coconut arrogance seethes through your post. You insult taxi drivers, which is a major earner for immigrants, as if to look down on people of that occupation. You look down on Muslim majority areas and term their areas as 'ghetto's'.

Nothing has changed. There are many Caucasian English born and raised abroad who still consider themselves as English, and not of the land they were born and raised in.

If you ever left your Uncle Tom world you would know that racism is still rampant.

Don't live in Uncle Tom's theme park. A taxi driver sees more of England than you do. Some English may accept a Paki as a British citizen, but they certainly do not accept you as 'English'.

Go Cornwall and talk to English people.

Don't even go there. Look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02uEBQojlqE

What has changed since colonial times? Britain is still invading countries.

That is only true for you. As Kashmiri's, we detest Hindus and Sikhs. We get along better with Arabs, Persians, Indian Muslims, Afghanis etc. Definitely not Sikhs and Hindus.