Is there ijma'a on contagious disease?

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by Aqdas, Mar 23, 2020.

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  1. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    Shaykh Shamsuddin, the Shaykh of Sultan Muhammad Faatih alayhirahmah, proposed the theory of transmission and wrote about it in his book "Maddat ul-Hayat (The Material of Life)"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akshamsaddin

     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    exactly.

    ok.
     
  3. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    No Sidi Abu Hasan, I am not fixated on that , as I clarified that pathogens effectuated (Allah Willing) cause people to get sick , I was though, attempting to appropriate the understanding of the past scholars with modern discovery without either losing much of what they said.

    The last text I mentioned actual goes further into explaining (I have not provided the screenshots) the interpreting the meaning of "la adwa" beyond the literal understanding, but we have for instance the hadith la Ghoul, isn't in rejection of the existence of ghoul as that can be found in the hadith lexicon, but a rejection of a certain "understanding and assumptions around the GHOUL(JInn)." Personally, I have a similar approach to the hadith "la Safar."

    So, I by no means reject the role of pathogens in the spread of disease as a "cause and effect phenomenon."

    But what I have an issue is with blaming the person who takes the classical approach as culpable , this can't be the status quo ,and would have to be looked at case by case basis (especially intent).

    I mentioned Ibn Qutaybah and Abu Sulayman al Khattabi, both proposed the model of virus, pathogens as causes.

    I am not denying the approach of ihtiyat, I never have, I just had personal preference over the other opinion (because there exists as you stated CONTRADICTION), and consider it more meritorious (due to the reward mentioned in hadith, if one is destined to get the disease).

    Anyone is free to disagree with me and also try to prove me wrong I will take all criticism, but as of now I am not at all convinced on (culpability) of the infector (especially with regards to airborne diseases), but particularly with COVID which is spread by aerosolized respiratory droplets,like Leprosy.

    Highly infectious and Slightly Infectious would have no bearing in the contention brought about by Brother Sohaib, because in both cases an individual would be faulted as having been an instrument in causing sickness.

    That is all. I don't have issues with people wearing or using masks, and If told to I will wear and use masks and gloves (as I do when entering stores that demand it.)

    But personally, I to use gloves , soap, and sanitize my hands when I feel there is a good chance of germs , toxins, and poison, and pathogens being present (like when digging through toxic dirt, or the like), but I will only call it naive when there is a 'significantly' high probability for harm beyond repair. For me with regards to COVID I honestly feel the numbers (relative to location ) do not justify the demand to abide by certain protocol : exceptions being the elderly .

    When I visited the family, I had already assessed they have gone through recovery and whatever pathogen in their body that would be , were already dead or to weak to spread, over the fact that my age group (20-30's) has strong immunity to this disease, Over the fact that it all boils down to my own immunity and what Allah Had willed will be.

    :)
     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in the famous hadith of good company:

    if you sit near a blacksmith, your clothes could be set on fire - or at the least you will feel the smoke and heat.
    if you sit near a perfume seller - he may give you a perfume, or at the least as long as you sit there, you enjoy the nice smell.

    ===
    is perfume 'contagious'?
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    does a rotten fruit spoil the bunch?
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    man you don't seem to understand the simple fact that 'infection' as a cause-effect phenomenon which involves an agent is post modern knowledge. all those texts including that of alahazrat, do not consider this information.

    if you read the hadith, the three things mentioned are all similar - that is, certain things are superstitions that have persisted among people.

    ====
    if there are seemingly contradicting hadith - in this case:
    - one to avoid proximity with the diseased
    - and another that 'infection' has no basis,

    you try to reconcile the first one and find explanations. why can't you do it the other way?

    besides, you forget that the fact is TWO seemingly contradicting hadith exist. and it is scholars who are trying to explain in the terms of knowledge available to them at that time. their opinion in worldly phenomena, in spite of their high stature does not have to be accepted at all costs.

    take the aayat of "maa fi'l arHam". do you believe that ultrasound scan can reveal the sex of the foetus? or is it also an unsubstantiated claim?


    ----
    one set of fuqaha/muhaddithin favour a view; and there are also others who favour the opposite view. so it is not a matter of certainty. they admitted that it is an issue open to interpretation. many luminaries held view A (i.e. 'infection' 'contagion' does not happen) because they couldn't really explain it in a cause-effect format. hence they took the hadith literally or absolutely.

    if they had the modern knowledge of 'infectious disease' and that there IS an agent - a virus, bacteria or some other pathogen, they would probably favour the other view.

    ====
    i don't think you have read or understood what you have quoted properly. you have already fixed your understanding to mean 'infection' = 'contagion without any cause'.

    i am reminded of an interaction i had with a guy many years ago. a native arab, who was puzzled how cars were mentioned in the qur'an.

    "ja'at sayyaratun" - and a 'car' came. so you can propound on how streams of yoghurt are found in jannah. (laban). and so forth...


    [instead of a car-van. oops caravan. you can do ta'weel too: it was 'car or van' and this became car-a-van and hence, caravan.]

    q.e.d.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  7. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    REASON 3:
    The opinion of Imam Al Baqilani and Ibn Battal forwarded by Imam Hajar and Shams al Din Al Karmani :

    Generally
    negating contagion for any disease, except for the diseases that are under the same category as leprosy, [which we now label as Contagious / Communicable diseases]

    My thoughts: Here we see some affirmation of contagion, and so far, this is completely aligning with “my breakdown of contagion” which you called useless, at least to me it reconciles all points mentioned in reason 1-3. As for your claim of blame/accountability. That was categorically rejected by said Ulama, (reason 2 ; sadd al dharia).

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    REASON 4:

    Also, an opinion forwarded by Imam ibn Hajar:

    The two apparently contradicting Hadith, were revealed at two different occasions, those who have Strong Yaqeen and Tawwakul will and enjoin the company of the contagious, while those who are weak should side with caution, to prevent any wrong belief creeping into their minds.



    My thoughts: With your understanding, Imam ibn Hajar is being naïve.


    REASON 5:

    The opinion, aided by the Tawfiq of Allah, of Ibn Qutaybah and Abu Sulayman al Khattabi:


    The issue of running from a Majzoob, doesn’t event enter the topic of Adwa (as in it not an issue of aqeedah), instead it is (protocol) to prevent the transmission of disease to another by means of physical touching, clothing and sniffing.


    My thoughts: Here we have an understanding of what we call pathogens and the like, which is something I am willing to agree and adopt as it is mentioned in my initial post (I affirmed pathogens and its contagious nature). But I was rejecting the proof of it through the hadith, but clearly these ulama had said it and you also made the same point, so I will agree with you, keeping in mind that this is contingent upon points 1-4 anyway.


    REASON 6:

    Another opinion forwarded by Imam ibn Hajar:

    Categorical rejection of contagion, the command to stay away from the Leper is to protect his dignity, and not to put ill feelings into his heart, which would come from people’s uncordial and repulsive reactions upon encountering them.

    The author then goes on to commend the ulama for their efforts in aiming to mend these contradictions, and pointed that many of the mentioned reason offer answers, some better than others. He goes further, into this. But I will leave that for need bases , those who are interested may read it.
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    I mentioned the above for the purpose of the group and to show that my approach is in line with sunni juristic ethos.


    Now as My final driving point I would like you to understand and think deeply on the next and final narration I will mention as it will put you in hot waters for everything you have said so far.


    p22.jpg
    Translation (matn):


    Here (i.e. in Mecca) there was a man called Nawwas and he had camels suffering from Heem : Mad Camel Disease?/(Camel spongiform encephalopathy). Ibn `Umar went to the partner of Nawwas and bought those camels. The man returned to Nawwas and told him that he had sold those camels. Nawwas asked him, To whom have you sold them? He replied, To such and such Sheikh. Nawwas said, Woe to you; By Allah, that Sheikh was Ibn `Umar. Nawwas then went to Ibn `Umar and said to him, My partner sold you camels suffering from the Heem and he had not known you. Ibn `Umar told him to take them back. When Nawwas went to take them, Ibn `Umar said to him, Leave them there as I am happy with the decision of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that there is no Adwa.



    Hazrat Ibn Umar initially told him to return them, but then he recalled the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ and told Nawwas “LEAVE IT !” (in Punjabi vernacular something to the likes of: OI CHAT DE!) he is pleased with what the Prophet ﷺ ﷺ’s informed about the Qadr of Allah.


    Now, Heem is highly contagious, according to you what Hz Ibn Umar did was naïve, not only but Ibn Umar is reprehensibly accountable and responsible for all the healthy camel me causes to becomes sick by entering them to his collection of camels, and that since is deliberately is purchasing a contagious camel he is culpable for all subsequent infections through the interaction of his camel.

    Clearly, he did not think it was naive of him to do so.


    From Allah is Tawfeeq, al Fatiha.
     
  8. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    In light of the confusion brought out through my "lack of clarity," I will readdress my points and concerns, clarifying my previous post and then addressing my opinion to Brother Sohaib's points.


    My position on the issue of Contagion in general, and specifically COVID-19, and Responsibility is as such:


    The Responsibility I am speaking of is: the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something.

    Not: being a correlator factor

    Not: the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.

    Not: the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization.

    Not: a thing that one is required to do as part of a job, role, or legal obligation

    Nor: a moral obligation to behave correctly toward or in respect of


    This should avoid any equivocation fallacy from this point onward.



    I shall now Provide a summary of the Ulama Opinion on the Issue of Adwa, I will be relying on a work for the sake of convenience , by a Saudi Salafi Usaama ibn Abdullah al Khayyat (I do not endorse the authors aqeedah), where he summarizes the opinion of the (Sunni -Ash’ari, Maturidi) Ulama on this issue of omens and adwa and the contention of contradiction that lie therein.
    p13.jpg
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    The Ulama have mentioned 6 Possible Reasons (some stronger than others) behind this apparent contradiction. From the bat it’s already clear that there is difference and your claim that “there is only one understanding, and it’s obvious,” already falls flat on its face.

    Reason 1:
    The opinion of Qadhi Abu Bakar al Arabi , Abu Umar Ibn Al Salah, Ibn Qayyim, Al Mundhari, and Al Bayhaqi :




    Nothing infects another with a disease intrinsically, rejecting the false understanding of people of Jahiliya of correlation = Causation. The Prophet ﷺ Rebuking this false notion by “eating with a contagious person (Majzoom) to show that CURE and DISEASE ONLY occur according to the will of Allah. To prevent the minds of people to assume by observing the “common occurrence,” or what you’d like to call wajib aadatan, as the reason instead of the means that Allah has chosen at a common occurrence. The correlation is proven BUT contingent upon ALLAH’s WILL.



    Imam Nawawi: Quotes the Hadith a Sick person should not come around a healthy, person, to affirm the approach of being cautionary, NOT REJECTING USING THE MEANS or Proceeding with caution with what is observed to be common in case of contagion



    My thoughts: You (Dr. Sohaib) are taking the approach of the above said Ulama’, and Alhamdulillah that is good for you .


    REASON 2:



    The opinion of Hafidh Ibn Hajar al Asqalani, Imam Al Tahaawi, Imam al Tabari:


    The Prophet ﷺ rejected Contagion in the general sense, and he affirmed this by the hadith, nothing infects another. Then they understand that Allah creates the sickness in each person independent of the observed correlation, just like how the first camel was diseased. The command to flee from a Leper is in accordance to, closing the doors (of fitna in aqeedah), lest he think it was due mixing with a person which gave him the contagion and getting sick (by Allah had destined) affirming CONTAGION [as in wajib (not mumkin) aadatan], and that he would put himself in undue GUILT and BLAME, so he’s commanded to stay away.


    My thoughts: This is the approach I am taking, which is of the 3 Imams’ above, by the way In Aqedah it’s the same in fact it can be combined with Reason 1, so In fact My approach is of both 1 and 2 so far, but wait there is more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  9. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    It is very relevant and you will see why near the end.



    The Arabic text does not have the word intrinsic in it , that is the work of the translator, so you don’t have “explicit” proof for it being “intrinsic power,” but that’s isn’t where I disagree with you any , I agree it is intrinsic, my point is you keep pushing the hadith about it being intrinsic but then neglect whatever come after as nothing of importance ? WHAT happened about QADR? I am looking at it holistically, denying intrinsic nature of contagion, and then “accepting the effect as QADR.


    I asked for you to bring a hadith that is explicitly trying to deny the intrinsic nature of something, and nothing else.


    I am not enforcing I gave my defense for my view and critiqued yours when you concurred; you had the “audacity” to indirectly call the approach of the Sahaba as a Naïve, by calling my approach out. If this isn’t clear don’t worry it is coming “near the end.”


    1) No, it’s not a clear giveaway, and this shows your lack of dept in this topic, this has always been a matter of debate and difference of opinion

    2) No, He agrees with me , and proof of that is coming ahead.



    It sure is sophistry, because it’s a figment of your imagination, a straw man that never existed and a non sequitur at that! How do you jump from fire being the reason for burning to exist to no believing that events can be correlated?!


    MY statement doesn’t imply anything of the like, that’s all you straw manning, plus were JAHILIYYA, ASHAR’I THEOLOGINAS? Can’t Jahiliya have sophistry? The argument of ignorance is not form me but you, yes jahiliyya believed in BAD OMENS coming from the CORRELATORY factor, they blamed owl for BAD LUCK!


    You need to back track because your confirmation bias is not purely coming from your medical background but your theological one as well.




    An argument of convenience, never was it “expressed” what responsibility meant, on one side you would refer responsibility to being a correlator, and then another as being culpable. I was not the one who was making a equivocation fallacy it was you. a




    Jazakallah Khair for the aqeedah lesson, it is very helpful but oft repeated, although the images are nice to have.


    How are you denying you ever accused me of responsibility now? YOU literally were lambasting my approach as naïve, surely to say that me being in an environment of sick people is correlated to getting the disease therefore making me responsible for putting myself in that situation.



    But Allah does provide him sustenance , even if he were to sit in a room an do nothing, he is just told to tie the camel, by typing the camel making dua or zikr is also a means but for the sufi or ahle tawakkul, and even then it is not preferred or recommended, rather striving and working is the perfect means.


    But again, this is not relevant, because in case of sickness, we are told to VISIT the sick, this is the sunnah! , only in the of a plague the hukm is stay in your land if not infected , and not leave your land if infected.



    Yes, it is and you may do so, how is it relevant to the discussion, as I already mentioned is it not in the hadith to ask to be given martyrdom in a plague? I am already in a state that has a plague, my state is among the TOP with the most cases nearly 1,800,000. I am already in an infected land, I can go wherever I want in this land, just not leave it.


    And according to Shaykh Salek, I can leave it and go wherever I want as long as I don’t believe I am postponing death.




    I don’t aim to change anyone’s opinion; I am merely defending mine and trying to prove it backed by Traditional Ulama of the highest caliber.


    I never intended to sidetrack or straw man, but as it goes, I don’t debate often so these fallacies and arguments may manifest unintentionally I do apologize for that.


    Yes as do I.
     
  10. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Brother I never said don’t fight , for me tawakkul, dua iman, and proper healthy lifestyle and habits is the strategy and technique to win this war, you can have an unskilled individual with a sword and shield and still end up dead, I am not advising other not to wear masks or gloves for me I believe the strategy I am using is “sufficient” but as mentioned if any authority “requires” that I wear, then I obey the authority.




    You clearly didn’t read any of the hadith I posted from Kanz al Ummal or any other texts for that matter, Our Prophet ﷺ Prayed for the death of some among his ummah to be given the rank of Martyrdom, SHAHADA. I mentioned this before.



    That is why its an analogy which means similarity to but not the fact that it’s the same thing, and the reason why I treated it is as such is due to the wording of said hadith and that of FIRAR = to flee from FEAR of imminent harm which in the case of a plague is and dead from plague are treated as martyrs. Hence my analogy. It is not to say it takes the same Shari rulings as jihad entirely.


    And all these precautionary methods are not the same actually one is more appropriate than the other , for instance sword and shield is like mask and gloves, as it is the outer protection, but fitness and exercise is like the strong immune system, the one who Is most effective is one who has both, but with the tawfeeq and tawakkul of Allah if anyone lacks either or he can still win (as attested in war’s the Prophet ﷺ fought with support from well skilled and unskilled and weaponless ashaab alike).



    First of all, I never advocated “one MUST NOT take the means,” were did you get this from, I simply mentioned my personal approach to this issue take, a preference that is also found in the sunnah. As I will make clear near the end.


    It does imply facing death, because the word Firar, is used then someone rushes to or from something with urgency, now the other hadith mentioned running away like you run from a lion. Ask yourself do you run away form a anything other than fear of death or injury?


    This is a “loaded question,” fallacy, because you state “are you going to encourage your parents.”


    This was never my proposition to begin with, I am not encouraging anyone, I am stating “my stance,” and backing up my opinion on the matter.


    So NO, for in the case you mentioned elderly are at a high risk of 20% of death and they should take precaution


    And YES, I would still tell them both opinions, and make sure their Aqeedah is straight, and make sure they don’t assume they are “preventing death even if it by a minute.”




    I addressed this part previously, and it has already been proven that masks and gloves are not sufficient means to prevent covid from spreading, and only reduce to eliminate the chances of getting it , people are spreading the virus regardless, only sanitization and washing hands is a proper means to kill possible pathogens.



    I understand fully your proposition, and I will bring this up near the end. I hope I have made it clear that to consider this “COVID” pathogen like poison is false analogy , but if you don’t want to agree, or maybe I am mistaken , it won’t help your case , as you will see why.


    And you have failed to address the argument of legality, MAN Slaughter or murder by intent or negligence is proceeded with blood money, HOW come there is no shar’i evidence of such a “blood money” paid by any of the Sahab, Salaf or even the Muta’akhireen” for that matter , for of course they could “correlate” that a fatal sickness was passed on by an individual (culpability),




    Unfortunately for you this only weakens your argument further, it falls flat on its face.

    How can you propose on one hand that the reason is because it’s not as “contagious” (low likelihood) and then at the same time use the hadith “run from the leaper as your run from a lion” to highlight the dangers of contagion [from a not so as likely conatagion!]???


    This is an outright contradiction, additional to the fact that “culpability” is not lifted, because it’s still CONTAGIOUS! And one is STILL liable and capable by “your” standards if they get Leprosy or any of the above said disease.


    Additionally, you yet again missed the point, the hadith isn’t about Hepatitis C, it’s about leprosy, sharing the same plate with the leper, mixing the saliva of a leaper with the food. In case you forgot it is sunnah to eat together in one plate and with one’s right hand, it was not a matter of “sitting together at a meal,” as you would like, it was a matter of “EATING together from the same plate.”



    “Furthermore, how foolish it is to dismiss what the Prophet ﷺ said, “Eat having trusted Allah, and have full reliance on him!,” why the need to even say this to a leper who has a “little to no chance of spreading diseae?!”


    This hadith can not be used to “prove”, “low contagion”, and this is indeed confirmation bias to assume so. Because as mentioned the Run form the Leper as you run from a lion would them assume that it is “highly contagious,” or else why would you have on one end running from a "low contagion," and then also eat with a person who is of low contagion?


    It “can” however be affirming contagion, and saying have trust in Allah so that it doesn’t intrinsically carry over to anyone. BUT THIS IS NOT the opinion of IMAM HAJAR you keep quoting.

    I already established I don’t deny correlation, nor pathogenic spreading, this was made clear in my initial post.


    You keep missing my point, I am focused on what is to be done “after knowing the fact (that no disease is intrinsically contagious),” but you are, for whatever reason still stuck on this.


    Imam Hajar opinion is as such:
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    He is denying correlation equals causation!

    and by extension I say, the one who CAUSES sickness here is ALLAH when he willed how your bodies immune system will react, and to associate blame to the person for causing “weakness in his immune system” is what is warned against.


    The author(salafi) plugs Ibn Qayyum opinion by mentioning the hadith in which the Prophet ﷺ “apparently” affirms omens, for women, a house, a horse (ride), but then it is shown that it is merely affirming the correlation when certain things are present but they “intrinsically don’t cause evil or ruin.”
     
  11. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Maybe it was my mistake to assume that conclusion from the statement, by vast you mean nearly all people, since you suggesting all people to observe protocol, I appreciate the gesture and it is on good will and your job as a doctor. But you are straw manning me by changing my “majority to minority.” My argument was you denying the majority, but you reject that premise, you instead apply rhetoric and make it sound like I’m rejecting the minority.


    As more evident comes and more testing is done, I am more than willing to accept the position that vast majority, but as of now the numbers don’t convince me. Clearly you don’t want to admit, and consider it postulation that the majority didn’t get infected. The myopia I’m speaking of; is when one says with confidence that vast majority of people are observed to have this effect, for this to be true you need to have statistical report which in contingent on vast majority of people (lets say 70% of USA) to take a blood test after having exposure to a COVID patient. Otherwise it’s a deduction based on available evidence. The reports coming in about how people got infected, is based on heresy unless substantiated by further evidence.


    My stance is majority of people did not get infected with the disease, not the fact that majority of the people who interacted with COVID don’t get infected with the pathogen.



    I stated this many times, I believe in pathogenic spreading, I believe in the correlation of the pathogens with the disease , what I don’t believe is in the responsibility of damage when it comes to COVID which doesn’t have enough statistical evidence (for me) to consider one “liable and blameworthy,” conditioned on “good will” and not evil intent.





    I was merely addressing your point and trying to show my perspective, and it’s not missing the point it addresses the point even you don’t agree to it. I have read your point with an open mind, and you point is not something I have heard for the first time, and I am not denying correlation.




    Nothing prevented me especially when wearing a mask and glove does not help, only two things help in my situation, a 6ft distance, and hand sanitization. I also wore gloves when they requested, as I mentioned everyone was already recovered from COVID, and for me I was under the impression from what I knew prior that a virus won’t spread after recovery, I even asked one of them and they responded “we don’t know.”


    Additionally, they are the infected ones, who have recently recovered, I did not believe this is one of those viruses that can be infected twice.


    And the final reason is what I made this whole post about, personally its on my immunity which is in the hands(Dust e qudrat) of Allah, despite all “ihtiyat” I have tawakkul and husne dhan bilAllah when it comes to my immunity in this disease.




    It was the elephant in the room, just something worth mentioning. Since the discussion had already gone of tangent for a while.



    I have already clarified this.


    [/QUOTE]

    Is that the only reason one closes the door if a serial killer comes to your house? Muslims do not close door because they think they could evade the time of death.

    But that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t act responsibly. They do adopt precautionary measures. They are not fatalists.

    [/QUOTE]


    Again, false analogy and straw man, is COVID a serial killer. Why because a serial killer is it a cautious human being with evil intent to kill people? Is a serial killer a mercy from Allah for the believers and a punishment for kuffar? Additionally, a serial killer will use a weapon will have 90-99% the time efficacy, even if that is his fist and merely punching and kicking, it will be addressed as such which means one is responsible for not defending. If a serial killer slash your throat does you have a chance of survival? Do 99% of people survive an attack of a serial killer? Does a serial killer have a correlated kill rate of 20% for elderly people, meaning he tries killing everyone but only succeeds in killing 20%?


    But even if I am to consider it a good analogy then yes those are the only reason people close doors to a serial killer,


    I said they fear COVID because of death or injury (symptoms mild to severe)


    Which translated as


    People fear a Serial killer because of death or getting injured (physical or mental harm to self and others, loss or damage of property etc).


    If these two weren’t the case, entertain me why would any one fear a serial killer.


    I am not missing the point. You are not seeing my point.




    I did not assume anything I made a statement based on facts, you said:” It is an observed fact that hospital beds are totally FULL.

    A generalization to make your case that is not true, you provide evidence yourself, private hospitals are hospitals none the less hospitals, and they are not empty. You accused me of generalization where it fits, but clearly you did the same thing although I agree with you in that public hospitals in many places are full and are working under full load.
     
  12. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    I retract my statement if I every said that generally, and yes, I am mistaken, what was meant was treating people as symptomless carriers by no substantiating evidence (test positive) as being conjecture.


    Among the listed diseases, I would clarify that I am not denying correlating factors for being infected but that those “correlating factors “alone” are the reason for disease, as for even infection, because merely intermingling or even shaking hands with or without protection is not enough to be “certain.” The fact that wearing the mask or gloves reduces infection is besides the point, people who wear masks and gloves are not protection from spreading or transferring the pathogens, pathogens spread through gloves and masks regardless.


    “Hygiene and Sanitization “are prevention factors as they kill pathogens on the surface. Your whole issue was with the issue of not practicing “ihityat” And responsibility thereafter.



    Actually, this virus is no different from any flu virus in terms of mechanism of spread, its only different is that with advance technology and heavy monitoring we are more aware of the spread of virus, but in term of the “nature” and “severity” lack of “vaccaine,” it is definitely worth attention.



    I know this isn’t what you are saying, but this is how its being understood, not by you but by many, people (generally) aren’t jumping to the conclusion once they are tested positive that they got it from grocery shopping or but immediately to the last sick person they met, or last group meeting they had. When the truth is if they logged in all possibilities, they would end up with more than those two incidents.




    This is an unsubstantiated claim, and it doesn’t take sherlock homes to see this. America is a population of 300 million, 4 million have been diagnosed with COVID 0.013% of known patients, you have no grounds to make any definitive case on how many people these 4 million interacted with , so it is “assumed”, and it is well known that America was the slowest to take protocol and steps , and by the time they did enforce mandate it did “prevent an accelerated pace of spreading of pathogens” but it did not eliminate its growth.


    Due to globalization and supply chain the virus has spread globally no doubt that is a means, but to me it still begs the question countries like INDIA (a population of 1.3 Billion), who were just as late to the game as USA and many neglected “safety” protocol and lived unhygienic lifestyles, before government mandate, resulted in 1 million diagnosed 0.0008% of known patients thus far. FAR LESS than that of USA. If you are saying this is due to lack of facilities and proper diagnoses , lets , double the “known” infected statistics, for india that’s 2 million, still half of USA, the numbers don’t add up if one is too acknowledge it is highly infectious its is for sure not highly deadly or a severe threat to 90-99% of people. For India to balance USA’s infected rate, you need a reported of 17 million infect (0.013% of 1.3 billion.)


    17 million is a lot of people, but this isn’t 17 million people in one city, its 17 million across the country and 17 million is still less than 1% of INDIA. Does it makes sense to treat something that if we were to multiply the casualty times 17 would result in 1% of the population, like its doomsday?





    So, given this apparently doesn’t mean, asymptomatic equates to being diseased 7-14 days later in MAJORITY of cases, given that you are treating asymptomatic people as potential “carriers.”


    I understand the protocol and merit the doctors and specialists for their effort but I would say this this protocol is severely flawed for a few reasons


    1) Testing doesn’t detect positive for COVID, especially in the case when isn’t enough viral load, the machine will not detect it therefore “an infected” (by medical standards) will be considered negative.


    2) This 2-week isolation will have to be a repeated process for the rest of the year or until the virus goes away? why? Basically, a person will question his infected nature ever two weeks because he may have obtained the virus after the point of being tested, this will be repeated ad infinitum until he is infected, and at this point he will lock himself and wait two weeks. (this to me is breeds anxiety)


    3) The belief that “COVID” can potential spread even after being infected and recovered is debunked, Unless you mean those individuals who have yet to recover fully, which still leaves contention #1 and #2.




    When was this about Pakistan, again I was speaking holistically, but you seem to frame your perspective solely on Pakistan?

    And who is to say that said countries are not under reporting? Have no doubt even china where his disease all began has underrated their reporting and they weren’t short of any supplies, they built makeshift hospitals overnight.
     
  13. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Brother neither am I being pretensions in my “acting smart,” nor does my lack in medical knowledge justify ad hominem or dispel me from the conversation, no matter how much you’d like that.


    But may I take the opportunity to show the where pretentiousness has indeed occurred:


    Your post #39


    So you agreed with my “meaningless break down which comes from 0 idea pertaining to medical science.” Subhanllah brother, you should never had agreed to it in the first place as now this serves as embarrassment to your medical professional status. You should have pointed out the mistake in my understanding in the first place, even as doctor your job is not to affirm false understanding but educate them in a deferential manner. In any case, you had no issue with my understanding in the medical side, but with the issue of responsibility.



    Here is where you missed the point, by dismissing my break down rejecting my frame of reference by looking at by conclusion not efficacy. I was going by immediate efficacy /effectiveness.


    Non communicable disease, which includes genetic and auto immune diseases cannot be categorically Sabab Wahmi in effect, for the mere fact people can be born with genetic disorders or diseases which will end in 90-99% of symptoms manifesting. Given a diabetic patient , if he is diabetes type 1 the individuals pancreas produces zero to no insulin, increases glucose and since muscles don’t use the sugar they have high sugar, there is no cure and is managed to injecting insulin and diet managent, this will be sabab aadi in its effect because such symptoms are observed in all patients who have this disease.


    Diabetes type 2 is similar, both have immediate repeated, chronic symptoms, again immediate efficacy.


    Diabetes type 2 is a result of poor nutrition and life style, obesity, here one is responsible, type 1 he is not responsible.


    THAT’S the difference, I am not making a generalization of every disease please don’t assume this on my end.


    Fatality is IRRELEVANT because it was because in conclusion (fatality) it is sabab wahmi because all that is correlated in studies is a reduction of life expectancy by 10-15years.


    You were pushing your argument on basis of conclusion, as I pointed out before, so when

    discussing SABAB AADI or SABAB WAHMI , what are you talking about ? SABAB of what is Aadi and of what is Wahmi.


    My argument was “acquisition” of pathogen, and its efficacy is wahmi, once one has the disease and it indeed takes effect (during 2 week asymptomatic period), the symptoms are aadi (in that it is observed in all COVID patients , people have x y z symptoms) but FATALITY is still WAHMI.


    I understand that many pathogenic disease are wahmi, because they don’t have immediate efficacy let alone lead to Fatality.





    Well this is an assumption I am not parroting but I maybe working on an incorrect understanding of the word , I proceeded with your definition but I would kindly like a documented reference of sabab aadi and wahmi with examples from the books of the ulama , I will accept any misunderstanding and mistakes from my end.



    It is a case by case bases, and not categorical, additional to the point that it’s a slippery slope argument grounded, as for diabetes type 2 one need to have a consistent poor diet with excessive sugar (which is against the sunnah), based on ones genetics and other factors the odds of diabetes is higher and contingent on those factors. Unlike COVID, if you have an individual and inject him with the same strand of COVID the result is bilateral, either the person will get the (including all genetic factors) disease or her will not (his/her immune system will fight it before it can multiply).


    The 80% of asymptomatic people fall under the second category, where they had little to no symptoms because their generic innate system (skin , mucus,, white blood cells) responds immediately to the invading pathogen killing off the virus to a level that is low enough that there is no chance for it spreading and causing infection. (THIS is WAHM in efficacy, we don’t know the penetration rate )


    Ironically a “deadly” virus such as COVID is not hurting children as much as adults.


    The more common observable result of infection is when the virus enters the body and to the lungs attaching to the receptors ACE2 and replicates (THIS is WAHM in efficacy, we don’t know the penetration rate again), here ALLAH’ has willed how your body will react, how much virus will replicate and how the immune system responds. AFTER THIS POINT, It sas been observed empirically certain age and ethnicities have higher probability of severity and risk but none are at 50% let alone 90-99%.
     
  14. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    F
    aqir :
    Never denied correlating factors. I agree with you. As for calling it a false analogy, would not be fair since, refer back to previous posts.
    Hence why you kept missing “my” point, my conversation was revolved around my initial post, not about people calling CORONA fraud, whatever that means.

    The explanation of this is coming.


    I have clarified this position previously I hope, intention and belief is key, if he believes he is “delaying death,” my claim is not moot, but if he doesn’t then indeed it is moot.


    Al -Faaar, is literally the act of fleeing “from fear of death,” if you actually spent the time and asked people why they don’t shake hands or why don’t they stay in a COVID stricken area, they will say I Don’t want to catch the virus, why ? because its DEADLY.



    The armor, and helmet is in relation to one’s immune system, the actual DEFENCE mechanism when it comes to disease and Immunity, as a doctor you should know this. What should be promoted “more,” than masks and gloves and building one’s immune system.



    As for the murderer, I already explained this is a false analogy, being stricken in the hand with knife will 90-99% cut the hand, maybe even mutilate it. Being struck with COVID pathogens in the hand, will not 90-99% result in it entering the body forget about even entering the body and then multiplying and fooling the immune system.


    It’s not a special pleading fallacy, even if it were, as Muslims we have cases of special pleadings when it comes to appealing authority in which case neither are fallacies.


    That’s what I meant the whole time, I agree with you

    My jump from point 2 to 3 is contingent, when people think they are “DELAYING” or “PREVENTING” death.

    Now if he doesn’t believe that and wears it as a means (asbab) that the sharia has allowed, then by all means, as I mentioned in my previous posts. But the Opposite is just as true, allowed and without any criticism


    I apologize, and it was my mistake to say there is little evidence to support that Asymptomatic people can spread a virus, all studies conclude is conjecture.

    I meant to be speaking specifically in the case of COVID, but ended up saying as a general statement, regarding COVID one may read this article : https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/.
     
  15. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Which ignorance? the Pakistani Conspiracy Theorist one? I have researched this matter more than the laymen, that,I can assure you. I never made claim to be a subject matter expert, I was actually giving my 2-cents.


    Have a look in the mirror when you accuse someone of not reading a matter in detail, I provide the Arabic texts from the sources. You yourself have done the same but relying on Urdu / English translation with [SHARH] in not only the hadith but the MATN (ie: the word Intrinsically is never found in the text of the hadith).


    You will realize that I did indeed research the issue more than some, if you go back and read through the scans I posted, additional to the one I will post.


    But I will say my research in this subject is basic, and I focused on the Islamic side, not the secular medical scientific side.




    Brother you’d be hard-pressed to prove it from this angle , since the hadith you mention, are not in relation to purely Safar, its related to all other superstition (misunderstanding), but yes I confess It is not a explicit denial, but it can be assumed (As I will provide later).


    In cased you missed those hadith here they are again from Kanz ul Ummal :
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    p9.png
    p10.png
     
  16. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Yes, brother that’s what I said, I said it’s not about (accepting or rejecting) correlation, correlation was something the Jahiliya Arabs could even see, it was to clarify the correlation (both in theological and approach to this correlation [Correlation ≠ Causation]. You misjudged my statement yet again.

    Again Agreed.

    This is your inference not an implication of the hadith, can be contended, as I will bring forth, at this point it is mubah to either take or not take precaution. The precaution you can suggest is not substantiated in this hadith especially in my case, because the hadith clearly says a healthy owner of the livestock can travel anywhere, which would include sick areas. Of course, one can then infer to the other Hadith corpus and build an argument for either case. The tying the camel hadith in contradiction to the majzoom hadith as I mentioned, so can’t be applied here, because according to the hadith I mentioned in my previous posts, tying the camel would be equivalent to having Tawakkul alone, and no further action is “wajib/necessary.” If you wanted to argue it was recommended or suggested, you would not have questioned using “responsibility,” as a scapegoat.


    Dear brother It isn’t a matter of cherry picking, as much as it is preference, I will post the opinions of the Ulama on this issue, for clarity.





    I said your argument against me, makes me seem as if I am taking a Jabari approach, particularly in their position absolve themselves of any responsibility for any action they take. You keep “missing the point” Not my intent at all, of course I’m responsible for all the choices I make, just not all of them are blameworthy or reprehensible.

    I voluntarily use a car to go to the masjid, with slight rain weather conditions. As its well known that the first few minutes are the most dangerous as either hydroplaning can occur or traction loss. Rain causes more accidents then snow, fog or even sleet, in the US alone nearly 6000 people die yearly, and 450,000 have rain related accidents. Now, this wasn’t heavy (stormy) rain, whose effect and danger is conspicuous and AADI, (90-99%) it impairs vision on the road, or extreme scotching heat which takes immediate effect 90-99% of the time, this was simply light rain, according to your logic, despite it being light rain, even a 0.001%, it puts me at “blameworthy responsibility,” and for what intending to go to the Masjid?

    Maybe someone will say, OH you should have known that cars hydroplane and skid during rain, you should have walked (in light rain), safer with an umbrella, its indeed a solution at the expense of practical implementation of the deen (especially for people who DRIVING takes 15-20 minutes to the masjid at the least, that could be 30-45 minutes or more walking).

    In regards to general contagion and specifically COVID I don’t have the voluntarily capability to make someone sick (diseased, be they asymptomatic or not). Just because there is correlation with the voluntary action of intermingling and not wearing mask or gloved (in relation to airborne / contagion) is insufficient grounds to hold me responsible (in blameworthy sense).




    I don’t think I am missing the point; I just think you don’t want to listen to “my” point, and push “your point. I never said it’s “ONLY,” in relation to the SUBJECT, it was in relation to your hypothetical question, also to even assume such a thing from my saying “no harm at all” is silly, since that’s clearly a hyperbole, was is meant in case you didn’t assume is that the harm is insignificant and not worthy to mention, especially since ALL your hypothetical question said was a drink with a 3% chance of death, you neither mentioned symptoms leading to death or otherwise, a 3% silent killer drink.


    It was my answer to your question, lets give a real practical example, fats food, its reported that in the US , out of 2 million people contract antibiotic resistant infection leading to 23000 deaths from them. So quick maths : 23000/2000000 = 0.0115% chance of death for every 2 million fast food infected patients, but that’s infected, lest look at the odds of infection if we consider 80% of Americans consuming Fats food, 80 % of 324 million = 260 million, potential infection rate = 0.008%.

    What this means is that eating a burger at Mcdonalds , you have a 0.008% chance of getting an infection in which case known medicine wont work, which further can lead to a 0.01% chance of Death.

    Source : https://www.partnersforyourhealth.com/fast-food-statistics

    I will support an advocate the precaution and steering of junk/fast food, but not on the premise of death or chance of infection, but on “Immediate” effect like high glucose, High Salt , intake of Unhealthy and harmful ingredients taking immediate effect on the body.

    Alhamdullilah as Muslims, we have halal restaurants and proper hyenine and ‘Islam’ mandates proper ethical measures of sanitization and slaughtering, so I’m not considering Halal food in the stat,


    Are you saying that even to prevent minor harm or simple sickness we should be the impetus for adapt precautionary measures?! Is this THE FACTOR in question when it comes to COVID or any EPIDEMIC, because the second would imply seasonal flu, so that means we should always wear masks because of “unknown” number asymptotic carriers for ANY infection. Are you saying that those who don’t wear masks during pollen season or flue season are RESONSIBLE for all subsequent consequences resulting from their intake and spread of that disease? This responsibility being accountable on the day of Judgment ?!

    Are most people aren’t shutting their doors and social distancing out of fear from mild symptoms, the general harm that comes from severe flu and other common diseases doesn’t compel people to lock themselves at home, but at a high mortality rate and severe symptoms does, so YES it is MORE about Mortality than HARM when it comes to the reason behind people's fears.

    Besides the fact , it was in flow of argument, since just previously you conveniently provided statistics centered at the mortality (17%), when you bought out in your statics to highlight the “Dangers,” and “taking responsibility,” and not hiding behind the “excuse of qadr,” additional to the your own initial re-framing of the argument on bases on conclusion and not effect.



    Well that’s makes everything clear, and explains why I was missing the point, this was never my MAWQIF, your Mawqif seems that the only way to acknowledgment correlation is to show a degree of responsibility.


    I had clarified that if by degree of responsibility if you mean “agency,” then that was already agreed to and acknowledged, but you clearly continued the discussion beyond that point so clearly that is not what you meant.


    You want me to acknowledge a degree on “reprehensible responsibility,” or “accountability,” of my actions.


    And this is where things will get difficult as it will “re-backfire from me back to you .”



    Straw man, I never said this This is a side-track.


    All irrelevant questions, it’s all to push your narrative and frame the argument around responsibility in impact of the virus with patients and their respective environment. Again, you are framing it on basis of subsequent conclusion, whereas my view it to look at immediate effect, if it is consistent it is Aadi. Especially since I didn’t dismiss correlation once symptoms manifest.

    When was this about the 20% elderly? You missed my point and proceeded to create a straw man, none of these aforementioned points were denied or considered conjecture. My point was in retaliation to the assumption that not wearing a mask will lead to the acquisition of COVID is conjecture, not the resulting factors. The mere fact that these statistics are not set in stone, that by itself would put it at conjecture. (because as more data is pooled the numbers change) you cannot say for a fact that it’s a 20-30% fatality rate for elders, and we will see what the rate is as of present. Conjecture is by definition a conclusion based on “incomplete” information; it does not mean it’s necessarily a false conclusion. The conjecture is on the first point, not on matters subsequent consequences and effects once someone does have the virus.

    So, again what was Conjecture with COVID is the assumption COVID is asymptomatically in majorty of people in effected areas and is spreading this way, therefore we must wear masks and gloves to prevent infection and death.

    That was what I meant as conjecture, since more proof is needed to substantiate this claim. If you think this is generalization, you not living in the same country I same country I am because that’s how the News and Government are going about it. I see three types of people, those who haphazardly are intermingling and not caring for government laws, the other who wont even shake hands out of fear of possibly acquiring a virus, won’t go to the masjid 5 times, but will go “grocery shopping,” will sit in the same car going to the masjid, but will demand 6 ft difference in the saf, and the last who balance between the approach with the understanding that bases more emphasis on the Hadith then “pathology experts.” These are all happening. Yes not in large numbers, but in many cases it’s in direct reaction to the fear and “protocol,” given by the government and “Health organization,” and then ulama who criticize this approach are branded “disappointing.”




    Same argument is repeated ten times over, as I said its circumstantial, one will be responsible in agency and action, but “blameworthy accountability,” is not taken for granted.



    Okay is it a False Analogy now? Interesting there is a research by Medical and PHD professionals who may have missed this point at the Stanford Prevention Research Center

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054361v1.full.pdf (Population-level COVID-19 mortality risk for non-elderly individuals overall and for nonelderly individuals without underlying diseases in pandemic epicenters).


    Their Conclusion being:


    People <65 years old have very small risks of COVID-19 death even in the hotbeds of the pandemic and

    deaths for people <65 years without underlying predisposing conditions are remarkably uncommon.

    Strategies focusing specifically on protecting high-risk elderly individuals should be considered in

    managing the pandemic.


    What is in blue is what you really have to worry about when you are worried about hospitals being filled up because of naivete of people as myself.



    If you still want to dismiss it as a false analogy it doesn’t help your case anyway, as demonstrated prior. Because % of casualties is irrelevant to the issue of responsibility.




    Hasty Generalization and Ad hominem, I am neither Pakistani nor do I pose myself as an expert.


    Critiquing or objecting an expert doesn’t not mean that one considers himself too to be an expert.






    Well you just said my comparison was a false analogy fallacy and a red herring, but then you affirm that it isn’t not a false analogy fallacy in term of responsibility, this is contradictory, all the 6 reasons you mentioned have completely different statistical outcomes and jumbling them together created a loaded question.


    Which one of these 6 are you are comparing not wearing a mask and hand to?

    Don’t answer, it’s a red-herring remember?
     
  17. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    I appreciate the statistics as they are useful to understand who is at higher risk, but this again is where you committed a red herring with a framing effect bias.

    To know about what framing effect is please watch this video:



    It’s a clear red herring, by shifting the topic from all people, to “my parents,” or “elderly people.” This discussion was never about elderly people, nor even about Pakistanis for that matter. This discussion was to be understood holistically, considering all possible external and internal factors, the effect of simply not wearing a “mask or glove.”

    Why frame it at a 20% fatality rate and not a 80% survival rate? Look how the mortality rate for ventilated corvid patients is stratified for those aged 18 to 65 at 76.4% and 65+ at 97.2%, there is a HUGE difference in the physiology and immunity of people aged 18-40 compared to 40+ , how come it doesn’t didn’t mention the stratified age percentile of 18 to 30 and 30 to 40? Let alone that fact that this research was in NYC, which for unknown factors has even a higher case of fatality compared to other states and cities.

    Every country will be looked differently and measured different in terms of precautionary injunctions and advice, because each country and citizen have independent and dependent factors some known others unknown that create different statistical outcomes.

    Clearly your noble concern is about preventing the rate of death from lack of ventilation in public hospitals, a valiant effort no doubt, and most rewardable intention, but it seems the solution hoped for doesn’t always work out due to poor planning , for instance the case with USA (https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/8517...n-most-without-treating-any-covid-19-patients) this is poor planning and execution, I’m sure had this been in Pakistan it would be very beneficial.

    But The point still is despite all imposed governmental lockdowns, people are still getting sick, so much so that it makes NO difference to public running hospitals, because they are already completely booked.

    If you want a solution, its to instill in the Populace with the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ , Tawaqqul , and reward one gets from having patients when suffering from the symptoms of said PLAGUE/PANDEMIC/EPIDEMIC when their lives are not in danger. As mentioned above, it is wajb for them to seek “MEDICATION,” when Death is certain or highly probable, and IF there is NO medication or Ventilation available, then have patience , hope in Allah to decide what is best if it is death or life, beseeching life (especially when the person in question spent his whole life in ghaflat.)

    Although it’s not exactly relevant to the topic, a point that needs to be made, for “precautionary measure.”

    In case someone misunderstands preferring Tawaqqul over medicine, or preferring sabr over hospitalization when not possible (and even when possible) is Not TO BE CONFLATED with YEARNING DEATH.

    There is a difference.

    Although there are exceptions to the rule (as I had sent but few cared to read )

    Sharh al Sudoor of Imam Suyuti (NOORI Publications) has two chapters on this (self explanatory)

    1. The impermissibility of asking death

    p5.png

    The footnote of notes that asking for “death,” when inflicted by a dreaded sickness, is a means of attaining hellfire. So as I said, no one is promoting that ones asks to die when he’s sick for corona, because he wants to die a Marty, what he can do is have tawaqqul in Allah to decide what is best, asking for LONG LIFE and CURE from HIM, but also have hope in attaining the rank of a martyr IF he dies, and have hope that his sins are expiated as he perseveres through the pain.

    And for anyone under the impression asking for death is not allowed under any circumstance then:

    2. When it is permissible to ask for death

    p6.png

    Valuable book worth reading, free digital copy at www.noori.org


    I will mention again, this time from the “ATHAR of IMAM SHAYBANI”

    Our Prophet ﷺ made exclusive DUA for his UMMAH to be given DEATH by “Da’oon”: Plague /Deadly Pandemic, and HE DID NOT MAKE A DUA AGAINTS IT. For if he did we would have known about it in the hadith books.

    p7.jpg
    p8.jpg
     
  18. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون





    Additionally, under some weird impression, you assumed I considered Corona the virus itself Wahmi, I don’t know where that came from, as you proceeded to define Sabab Wahmi and Aadi.


    I thought I’d share now since It did not cross my mind at the time, but actually I did recall people getting the virus through “possibly” no known contact, and that this isn’t merely an imaginary case as almost three months ago an article (https://www.theguardian.com/global-...irst-indigenous-case-of-coronavirus-in-amazon) confirmed COVID positive individuals in the ingenious population of Brazil . Granted that their might have been some person from china or somewhere who had an and infiltrated the middle of nowhere tribal Amazonians, highly unlikely, and that this “type” of report it’s not as equal in terms of infection rate, so I’d still be responsible according to how you define Sabab Wahmi, I get it.



    In post #48, You changed the frame of my position,

    As I clearly stated "the (as in MY) concern isn't about conclusion, it’s about the immediate effect", where you conveniently changed it to your fitting, because It can go both ways.


    And your response was: This is where you are getting it wrong. The concern is indeed about the conclusion and NOT necessarily the immediate effect. Though it could be otherwise as well..


    Sure, it can, But I am not speaking of both ways. You can prove Islam by proving God first, or by Proving Prophethood first, they’re not going to have the same approach.




    As for my “Fallacy”, It is not a false analogy fallacy I was never comparing the 90-99% burn rate with fatality rate. If anything, it can be seen as a Non sequitur, because I “randomly inserted the comment about Ebola.” I was contrasting the 90-99% (wajib aadatan) immediate effect of the empirically observed phenomenon of pyrolysis, an aadi / tabi’I effect of fire or extreme heat with that of a person touching COVID or any other VIRUS. Pathogens when “touching the naked human body, or even human organs “ DON’T have this 90-99% effect, they CAN activate either immediately or delayed , Due to such unknown frequency factor taking those precautionary measures out of “fear” of acquiring Cororna it is Wahmi / Speculative, as you know speculation can be right or wrong, it just needs more proof.


    For instance, we see fire burn wood, but then we see that a certain piece of wood isn’t burning, we discover its wet, so the water is not letting the fire burn, so we chop the outer layer of the wood until we are left with a dry piece of wood, and then it burn 99%.


    So, in your defense we can say wearing a mask or gloves, is seen to be a similar effect as water on a log, it significantly reduces the spread of pathogen. Again, my comparison was spread of pathogen to spreading of fire. But this will still be Qiyas Ma’al Fariq, why? because unlike wood and fire, even if we remove the mask and gloves (like chipping the wet wood), we still find an inconsistent % of people who get the pathogen let alone the disease, this is in the case of merely touching. As for the case of drinking or direct injection of the pathogen which will be 100% observed acquisition, we still fail to see a 90-99% acquisition rate INCLUDING ASYMPTOMATIC patients, but definitely higher than the prior scenario, so lets even consider it at 80% certainty of correlation, this is contingent upon knowing that someone is a carrier of the pathogen, NOT EVERYONE is to ASSUME he is a carrier, this is WAHM, although to turn his WAHM into certainty he can get tested.




    Talk about Slippery Slope Fallacy , additional to the fact that it is Qiyas Ma’al fariq. With such mentality, don’t even have children, out of fear one’s wife MIGHT die from through maternal mortality. Oh, so now the Husband is responsible for her death? Or was he naïve for consummating the marriage?! (by the way this is a proper analogy to your slippery slope analogy.) Furthermore, what of labor…. very painful…. excruciating during delivery …and “It has been correlated that once pregnant the VAST Majority of women have pain when giving birth, only a minority have painless delivery.”

    but according to your logic the all husbands and particularly (in countries below) are “reprehensibly” responsible for their pain (during labor/delivery) and death. ALAS, had he not impregnated she would never have faced such a thing.

    p1.png

    Preventative measures here are dealing with nutrition diet and hygiene, same goes for disease, proper nutrition diet and hygiene are the “precautionary measures” that people should actually promote, especially that which is found to increase the immune system.

    And if you “say straw man “, please save me you breathe, you clearly were intending responsible in the reprehensible sense, or the other option would be that you misjudged my posts as denial of the agency factors of responsibility, which I assumed was clear with my repetition of “APRIORI” from there on out.

    Moving along with your analogy, tell me what “Islamic justification does one have for putting a nail on the road, and what is his intention?” very little to a few ie: like how cops spike trip speeding criminals?! Visiting the sick is a Sunnah! Eating with a Leper is a Sunnah! Don’t say one “must,” wear a mask to prevent harm. One CAN if he wants to, to prevent harm, it is not a MUST. Or Does one have Su’ al Dhann and think a person is shaking hands with the intent of killing people? Oh, that can’t be because clearly, he’s just a a Naïve person whose is killing people, without realizing. We should not jump to conclusions, not for my sake, for the what is to come (further proof and dismantling of your arguments), and the unintended consequences of “not my actions,” but “your criticism.”

    I noteworthy point: [somewhat related]

    Are you even aware that, taking medicine in a non-lethal sickness is Optional, and that there is only Ijma’ on taking medicine being WAJIB in the fear of certain death, is this naivete to you?!

    Imam al Haythami from his تحفة المحتاج

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    If cure is optional for non-lethal disease, then Afortiori “precautionary measures” is even more optional when it comes to “possibly acquiring a disease.

    The “Hadith-Corpus” you speak of, including Tibb al Nabawi need to be understood in light of what I quoted.

    Seeking cure from medicine is ALSO proven even more so since the Prophet ﷺ himself did it and commanded it and it is AMONG the matters of Tawaqqul. It’s not an either-or case, as you would like it to be. It is however a case that taking Asbab is among perfection, so as long as you don’t believe not taking it will not cure you, nor should one think that by avoiding taking the means he is MORE MUTAQQI, taking and not taking should have no impact on ones level of Taqwa in Allah.

    Fath al Bari – Imam Hajar al Asqalani

    p3.png

    Key point is what the Prophet ﷺ (peace be upon him said): If you have patience (with tawaqqul) for you is Paradise, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you to be cured. She asked to have patience over her illness but asked that her awrah be protected under her epilepsy, for which the Prophet ﷺ prayed for it to be covered.


    The famous Hadith al Uthman ibn Hunaif (particular scan is from Musnad ibn ahmad)

    p4.png


    Key point is what the Prophet ﷺ (peace be upon him said): If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you.

    Dua Is more valuable and powerful than medicine in face of ineffective medicine, and reliance on effective and working medicine is just as valuable and powerful as Dua.

    There are people of Taqwa, and there are People of Fatwa, sadly for you, neither of them supports your claim,

    Additionally, I mentioned in my previous posts, how sickness and covid / or plague is “EXCLUSIVELY” a mercy for the believers an expiation from sin, and then if I am an agent in spreading this “MERCY” why are you disheartened?

    Now if I judge that the person I am in contact with, will have weak iman and blame khalq for the illness and not have Tawaqqul and be impatient and say statements of Kufr , I will not interact or meet the person, or at the least I will wear the mask and gloves to prevent his IMAN from being soiled.

    Your claim is “it is naïve,” and mine is it isn’t granted one has true tawaqqul. What wisdom, am I lacking, when in fact Prophet ﷺ has glad tidings for those who are sick, and it’s a means of mercy. When I was full submission on any outcome of that interacting.

    Such contentions never settle with me well, and are to me weak in face of greater reward.

    I made sure I wasn't being nearsighted and considered the reaction and psychology of everyone involved in my family and the one I visited. As I worse the gloves, when they asked me too.
     
  19. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    In due time brother, I mentioned "if you think that ......so be it ; as in I can't change your impression of my observation), even Jalali Sahib mentioned an account of a Peer who wouldn't let his mureeds kiss his hands from fear (caution as you would like to call it) of infection. Additionally by "Proper Precaution," I am talking about those who "exaggerate" in precautionary measure claiming that to be proper , anything less than that as "insufficient."

    ‏اللهم ألهمني رشدي، وأعذني من شر نفسي
    ‏O Allah! Inspire in me guidance and deliver me from the evils within myself

    I was patient with your response, I request the same , I don't wish to argue for "argument's sake" as you surmise, I will take the time to thoroughly explain my point of view. In the meantime If you are as sincerity is reciprocated I urge you to finish watching all 4 videos "at the least."
     
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    no one's "imposing" or "foisting" anything on you - that is the simple corollary to your strange statement - and I tried to nudge you to see it from that angle. Maybe you intended to say something else - but the way it's worded, it inevitably leads to the said conclusions*.

    as for jeering - I warned you already that is was a tongue-in-cheek, not intended to offend.

    I rest my case.


    ---
    * if you can show an equivalent statement from any relied-upon scholar, please do - I will retract my contention without ado in sha Allah
     

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