Dawat e Islami refuting deviants

This was long due to be said. I have personally seen lay people who have not even studied fard ayn nor know any arabic challenge and get into debates with learned people on social media. The amount of disrespect is shocking. They don’t even know how to ask a question to someone who is learned. Some have been known to impertinently private message learned people. It’s a disease and social media made it worse.

 

Some years ago, i did not have much ilm. I was against Aulama who talked against other Sects. That's why i almost just used to listen to Tariq Jameel. And however, i once came across a Video of Ameere Ahlesunnat Molana Ilyas Qadri. If it was someone who opently talked against Deviant sects, maybe i never would have listened to him. But as i never had heard him talking against other sects directly, i started listening to him and watching Madni channel. And like that, i came in the Madni Mahol of Dawateislami. Islamic brothers told me about the correct Aqaids, and thats how i became a sunni with correct beliefs. But then i needed to know "why the other sects are deviant?". And for that, i watched videos of Aulama who openly refused deviants. And thats how i understood "why the other sects are wrong. (Remember that brothers from Dawateislami also told me about Wahabi/deobandis and there false beliefs).

So basically, we need both type of Aulamas. We can not say to everyone that refuse deviants openly pn tv, either can we say to everyone to not do openly radd. Ahlussunnah needs Aulamas working on every field, not just one.

 

is it obligatory for everyone and on every platform? in that very malfuz alahazrat explains why everyone should not get into this business of refutation.

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not really, but i will try. the question was:

ulama should speak up when it is necessary especially when they can, especially when they have a following and especially when they are in a position where they can influence the public. however, only those ulama who are specialists in this field of munazarah and radd, and who have the skills to engage with heretics should get into debates or refutation.

ulama should not be silent when they are asked about deviants - except when they are in a genuinely precarious situation. and ulama should certainly not hob-nob with deviants and praise them or be equivocal, thereby giving an impression of acceptability. the "agree to disagree" kind fall into this category who wish to run with the hare and hunt with the hound.

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if a group of scholars are already busy in refutation and doing this work, others should direct their resources in areas that are equally important.

is teaching qur'an not obligatory? is teaching the method of prayer for common folk not obligatory? how many of the famous munazirs or the scholars who clamour for dawate-islami to refute deviants engage in this activity? how many of these people are working at the grass-roots level?

it is easy to point fingers and belittle the work of others. the truth of the matter is, dawat e islami has a major share in popularising alahazrat and his manhaj in the past 15-20 years in various ways apart from publishing of sunni books, including polemical works (surprise!).

the cross-referenced edition of bahar e shariat is one of the major contributions of DI in the field of publishing sunni works. only those who understand the value of BeS will be able to appreciate this - those who consider BeS as just another work will probably suppress a smile at my naivete.

some of our friends might be offended if i say DI is on alahazrat's manhaj; and point out issues that according to them are NOT, the most glaring of which is the use of TV and images. this is a fiqhi issue - and not an issue of aqidah. alahazrat's manhaj is about the aqidah of ahl al-sunnah. and if DI has departed from alahazrat's manhaj in aqidah, then indeed they should be called out. but first, list the aqidah issues that you think DI has deviated from ahl al-sunnah/alahazrat's manhaj.

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Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

is it obligatory for everyone and on every platform?

 

https://www.ridawi.org/malfuzat/religious-debates/
maybe a new thread is needed but i find this thread very relevant.

A'lahazrat in his malfuzaat states (in the above link):
In fact it is obligatory (farD) to refute heretics. It is in the Hadîth:

When mischief and heresy is widespread, and the scholar doesn’t refute them (demonstrate his learning), then Allâh’s damnation is upon him and the curse of the angels and men. Allâh will neither accept his obligatory nor superoragatory worship.

dont you think its a good time to answer this question shaykh?

 

good question.

 

Every Sunni organization supports the defense of aqidae Khatme Nubuwwat, be it solitarily or jointly with other orgs.

But anyway, this is one idea of yours i agree with.

I had once suggested a "merger" or DI and TLP to form a major mega Sunni org in Pakistan, that I feel can then eventually become a Sunni "shark" (so to say) swallowing many other smaller organizations and peerkhanas - and then eventually we'd have like a major unified Sunni force in Pakistan that could even bring about a revolution by its size and strength.

Everyone continue their different activities as Abu Hasan mentioned, but unify as a national Sunni force in leadership and management.

I said it to those my voice could reach to, and they shrugged it off citing different areas of expertise, as well as an over ambitious pipe dream for Pakistani Sunnis.

I still advocate for it.

 

from another thread:



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ulama forbid common folk, even scholars from referring/reading books of deviants. exception is given for those who read those books to refute.
if everyone should refute, does it not mean then, that everyone should read their books? if this is the case, then where does the tab'yiD fit in?

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with due respect to taj al-shariah rahimahullah, it is not obligatory to agree with every opinion of his; and neither is disagreeing with him on a verifiable ilmi issue disrespectful.

tafsir ibn kathir is mostly a ma'thur tafsir and is an excellent resource to trace the ahadith and aathar related to a particular aayah. and as i have pointed elsewhere, he inclines towards the ash'ari madh'hab in the tafsir of aayat al-sifat.

 

but i don't blame mufti fulan sahib or mawlana fulan sahib for not refute saqib on qawali. i have been refuting deos for decades alhamdulillah (and in sha'Allah, i will keep doing, so long as Allah ta'ala Wills) - but i don't expect others to do the same nor will i blame them for not refuting them.

the point you have missed is that not everyone is capable of refutation. are you saying that any scholar who did not refute wahabis in alahazrat's time was a deviant? why only deobandis? which of the barelwi/maslak-e-alahazrat ulama have refuted hamza yusuf or perennialist fitan?

translating husam or alahazrat's books is not everybody's cup of tea. i won't blame them if they have not translated it.

but how many translators understand this?

the translations out there are mostly shoddy and cringe-worthy - translators who have no footing in kalam, hadith, usul, tafsir or even able to transcribe well-known names of books and ulama, nor clarity of expression produce translations of alahazrat's work. translators who have [metaphorically] murdered alahazrat's work.

young boys who have probably not browsed alahazrat's work properly are confident that they can translate his monographs.

i usually refrain from commenting on this matter because my views may be labelled as professional jealousy, but excuse me this time.

if one is unable to trace alahazrat's citations, do takhrij independently from source books, look up commentaries and have the capability to explain technical terms, and have a fair idea of alahazrat's corpus, they should not attempt translating alahazrat. i wonder how many can explain ghalib or iqbal or shakespeare in modern english. how many are confident of writing an annotation of a shakespearen sonnet? if one cannot, then why should they be translating alahazrat's work?

as for alahazrat's poetry, less said the better. the poet's exquisite metaphors are steamrolled with literalist interpretations much like smacking a multi-coloured butterfly with a thick dictionary in order to catch it. the equivalent of plucking a delicate flower by grabbing it, clasping it in firmly closed fist and stuffing it in a tight pocket. whatever comes out of that pocket after a few days is not the same delicate flower with delightful hues that attracted the bees and made the nightingale sing.

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there are various areas to work in this space. everybody cannot do everything. people should choose an area in which they can contribute and focus on their strengths. DI has chosen to work on the layman's problem and we should leave them to it. especially because not many are doing it.

why doesn't everybody write commentaries of hadith works? why doesn't everybody teach? why doesn't everybody make speeches? why doesn't everybody go out and gather common people, bring them to the masjid and teach them basics?

لكل فن رجال ولكل مقام مقال

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true, DI have their shortcomings. but actions like changing words in some of alahazrat's works are errors of judgement by some editors.

'they changed a word in a poem so they are sulh kullis' is a lame allegation. alahazrat's kalam is not qur'an or hadith - and changing some words, howsoever undesirable, is not a crime.* if you claim it is heresy, get us a fatwa from any prominent aalim about a person who alters one or two words in the poetry of alahazrat.

* unless of course, it misrepresents alahazrat's views, or distorts his opinion. when rephrasing hadith is allowed as long as it is true to the message, changing alahazrat's words is not a big thing especially when it has no bearing on aqidah. yes, one of the alterations in al-malfuz was wrong, but that is the editor's mistake. in spite of that, the DI malfuz is a good reference as it has a good index in the back of the book.

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i am upset with mufti khalil khan barakati's inline commentary of the risalah "iytiqad al-ahbab" where he interspersed his own comments in alahazrat's work. that is an error of judgement. i don't like it one bit, but his intention was to explain alahazrat's words for common benefit. yes, he should have marked them as footnotes to keep the original text and annotations separate, but i am sure he didn't expect the original to be lost. but can you call this as disrespect?

the 30-vol edition of alahazrat's fatwa reordered the rasayil - even though the first volume was done in alahazrat's own time and by his own arrangement.

alahazrat's books were/are published with different names - even though alahazrat had chosen special rhyming names (often chronograms) for his books.

are these disrespectful too?

[the rasayil were reordered as the editors felt they belonged under different categorisation; new names were given to books because common people would be intimidated by arabic names, and publishers/scholars felt apprehensive that they would not touch alahazrat's books. so descriptive names in urdu were adopted. all these actions were done with good intentions].

lack of ilm or not enough ilm to discern between what is important and the ability to prioritise. lack of foresight which comes with experience and wisdom. lack of such seniors who can guide the next generation - and the delusion of the freshly minted madrasa graduate who thinks he is the next alahazrat.

and it has become more and more difficult for sunnis to operate. and it is even more important to focus on teaching deen in the limited space and constraints. one wrong step, and DI can get themselves banned.

who is stopping you brother? but have you looked inward?
how many books of deobandis have YOU seen?
how many books of refutations of deobandis have YOU seen?
how many books of aqidah have YOU read?

here is a list for your convenience: https://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/quick-reference-sunni-refutations-of-devbandis.14213/

how many books from that list have you seen or read? and if you are not a scholar, then you are not qualified to have an opinion on this matter.

good. and leave it there.

there are people who are doing it. why don't you ask people like mufti asif jalali sahib to go out every week with his students door to door or hold gatherings to teach basic farayid?

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there are different reasons why someone might be quiet - and it is not silent assent all the time.

you need to probably learn about the hadith about how one can stop a munkar by their hand, if not by their tongue and if not deem it munkar in their heart.

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https://sunniport.com/index.php?thr...ce-on-abstaining-from-religious-debates.1150/

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Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

Please tell me what the rulings on refutation are.

'Ayn or Kifayah?

Are you transmitting that khabar from someone or are you the shahid of the phenomenon yourself?

If it is the former is it khabar wahid or tawatur?

If it is the latter, is the observation universally the case or only locally so?

Is engaging in politics Fard 'Ayn or Kifayah?

Are you sure you support TLP, an org that heavily makes use of video which you consider an Ijmayi Haram?

Based on that is it Fard 'Ayn or Kifayah to support TLP?

Are we? Maybe so for those who remain silent while Mawlana Asrar refutes baatil. Who's entered the maydan against the shia in English with understandable usuli substantive refutations from the Barelwis today?

Fard 'Ayn or Kifayah?

 

Juwayni

NB : DI has changed alot since then. When it started, it wasnt as large as it is today. Madani channel was non existent. Mufti Jalaaludeen Amajadi Alayhir Rahma passed away i believe in 2002. Which shows this fatwa was given before it.

Times have changed. Circumstances have. Sullah kulliyat has become rife lately. Rifd and deobandiyat is creeping in our sunnis and some well know sunni scholars. Hence there is a high need to protect peoples imaan currently.

As mentioned, DI ground work is great. But there is a high need to openly make radd. DI is slowly being caged by their own policies. They dont support TLP openly for khatme nubbuwah and where pakistan currently is, they really need to openly speak up.

Warning people against dangers of loosing imaan and which groups exaclty to be watchful of is extremely important, especially where sects are increasing by the day.

I totally respect DI for the work they doing. But certain things they do really don't benfit Ahlus sunnah at all.

Why is it that every deviant is openly refuting sunnis, but we are being hesitant to do so?

If all sunni scholars say the same thing there will be unity and strenght. No point 2 out of 10 scholars refuting while other 8 are quiet and only doing dawah towards faraid etc. It looses effect. Im speaking in light of recent events with sunnis.

Well i dont think you understand what im trying to highlight.

Let things be. In sha' Allah one day everybody will realise and ponder upon these discussions. Lets leave our strings loose and keep giving leeway to our Sunnis. Lets see how far we go.

We have already seen how rifd has spread in UK and globally sullah kulliyat. Our sunnis are attending deo mosques, getting their kids married with these deviants etc. Let see whats more to come. Allah ease the affairs of Ahlus Sunnah. Āmeen

 

Dear brother, questions for you:

• Is it farḍ ʿayn (individual compulsory obligation) for a every institutional Sunni organization that ascribes themselves to Alahazrat to be involved in radd?
  • Particularly, is it an individual compulsory obligation for every Sunni organization to translate Ḥussam al-Ḥaramayn such as Jamiatur Raza, Manzar e Islam, and Jamat Raza e Mustafa?
  • What is the ḥukm if the translations are not done properly?
• If not is it a farḍ kifāyah (collective compulsory obligation) to do so?
• Or is it a wājib ʿayn (individual obligation) to do radd or is it a wājib kifāyah (collective obligation)?

Ākhī al-ḥabīb, between us Mufti Jalāluddīn is a proof. As such let us consult his fatwa on Dawate Islāmī:




Question: Dawate Islāmī don’t do open refutation of Deobandis, does this approach of theirs cause benefit or harm to Sunnis?

Answer:

• The approach of Dawate Islāmī has nothing except for benefit for Sunnis, there is no harm for Sunnis at all.
• To fulfill the responsibility of tablīgh does not mean that you need to openly refute.
• Rather, taking current affairs into consideration, it is better to approach these issues with softness and kindness in order to open them up to the truth.
• In the story of Pharoah, Sayyiduna Mūsā and Hārūn (ʿalayhimas salām) approached him with gentleness despite him claiming to be a God, as per the command of Allah. Allah Says [and the translation being]: “And speak to him gently.” - Surat Ṭa Hā āyah number 44
• Due to the general benefit, to not refute them openly and to not talk regarding the contentious issues so that they draw closer to us and listen to our views so that they may accept the truth is actually proven from the Qur'ān. Allah Says: “Oh people of the book, come to a common word between us and you.” Surat Aal ʿImran āyah number 64.
• Since Deobandīs are using Tablīgḥī Jamāt to spread the false beliefs and causing harm to Sunnis, there was a need of an organization to rectify the state of the laymen: To bring people to the Masjid, making people act upon the Sunnah, and to halt the progress of the Tablīghīs and propagate Maslak e Alahazrat. Alhamdulillah, Dawate Islāmī in this unique mission of theirs seems very successful.
• This is why the great scholar Mufti Sharīful Ḥaq Amjadi* writes: “Mawlānā Ilyas Qadrī is doing such an amazing job on such a global scale that millions of misguided people have become Sunnis; millions of people who didn’t act upon the Shariah started to become strict on the Shariah. Even millionaires and extremely rich people started to keep beards, started to wear the turban, started to pray 5 times with jamaat, and become interested in religious topics, and are inspiring others to do so too.”
• Without a doubt, Ameer e Dawate Islāmī's work has given much benefit to Sunnis.

* J Note: The esteemed scholar who refuted Faisla Kun Munzara.

 

Not hilarious, more sad than anything else that you guys have this extreme hatred within yourselves for other Sunni muslim that you have to jump on any opportunity where their name is mentioned.

Not much different from salafis or Shamima Begum are you. And tbh everyone reading this thread who is unbiased and principaled can see how low you guys stoop and it's actually never ending you guys never will learn or change no matter what the DI boys do they're always target practice for you guys in the this fantasy world where you're the only true Sunnis left on the planet.

I don't agree with every single thing in DI policies as Aqdas and a few others know but I'd never stoop this low like you lot, it's just pathetic how you behave.

 

So if 2 people think alike

Its means they groomed by the other.

Quiet hilarious.

 

You sure sound extreme like him. Perhaps he groomed you into your current black and white viewpoint like Shamima Begum was groomed by isis.

 

Huh

 

Sadly, today correcting somebody on their ill practices/mistakes is a waste of time.

I think ulama should just stop giving guidance to the awaam for doing wrong as so many issues are 'Furu' matters. Lets leave qawaali with mazameer as some sunni scholars permit it.

So Mawlana @abu Hasan you just wasted time refuting Pir saqib shaami on this port on Qawali. As its not benfit to the sunnis. How can one sunni scholar find fault in a world renowned research scholar who has atleast a million followers.

Thats the mentality our sunnis have today!

 

As anticipated Rukhsar never misses a opportunity where DI is mentioned. Give it a brake for once.

 

If Sunnis thought long term, we would not be in the state we are in. Wasted effort and time on just infighting and refuting each other for subsidiary issues. Yet we still don't realise what we are doing and continue to find fault in some of our scholars and organisations and overlook the primary role they are playing on a grassroot level. We then pat ourselves on the back, look how we are safeguarding the 'maslak of Alahazrat, not knowing or believing how irrelevant we are becoming on all the major stages. Then we complain that the deviants are getting traction and sunni practices are getting maligned or misrepresented. We don't realise what damage we are doing. Go and make the likes of DI and Shaykh Asrar 'Mashqooq'. Who is it going to benefit? Let me give u clue, it won't be sunnis.