Fish and dairy together

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by Umar99, Nov 23, 2017.

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  1. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    How about the other combination of food mentioned in the passage? Are there any hadith relating to the restrictions of eating vinegar and milk, fruits and milk، lettuce and fish, garlic and onion, etc?
     
  2. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    Nobody in this thread is claiming/claimed it's a hadith. From what I can see. Could be wrong.

    Up to date, nobody knew that the book is falsely attributed to Imām Suyuti Radi Allahu Anhu.

    Even though Imam Suyuti did not mention this. This should not mean that precaution should not be taken against such. Only Allah knows best what are the true causes of leprosy and these diseases. However, precaution should be taken as I personally think many Ulama wouldn't just write these measures for fun in their book.

    Ok a question may come up that modern medicine does not back this up. Then What about many diseases that are discovered (causes) etc that possibly go against Qur'ān and Hadith?

    There has to be some reasoning in them mentioning this in their bayaan/book as Mufti jalaludeen/dawate Islami article/ Mawlana abu Hasans teacher etc. did.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as i have said before it is his opinion which he got from his elders. notice - he didn't say it is a hadith.

    nor did ibn qayyim.

    find me a text that says it is a hadith - and if it says so, find me the source work if not the isnad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    don't get me started on that book.

    it is not suyuti's work - that i can say with certainty. perhaps suyuti wrote a book by that name which is lost - THIS work is certainly not suyuti's.

    ---
    when imam hamid raza was accused of having joined the muslim league, and an essay falsely attributed to his name was circulated - mawlana zafaruddin said/wrote: 'it is possible that a son can oppose his father (the rumour that shaykh hamid was opposed to alahazrat) but it is impossible that a man of high calibre lose his skills as soon as he joins the league!"

    meaning the essay was of such low quality that it could not have been written by a man like mawlana hamid.

    ---
    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    This is what i alluded to in my post immediately preceding yours regarding eating or health matters within the realm of known halals.

    If indeed there is a hadith on it, then the fiqh implication will be of a preference ie mustahab to not eat them together (fish and milk or milk and fruits), rather than qat3i haram, as the listed items are known to be halal.

    Think about it, there are other matters with more well known ahadith and/or stronger wordings and bigger ikhtilafat on interpretations.

    The hadith on the miswak is known by near tawatur and the wording indicates near commandment and benefits well known in all ages. Which scholar called it fard or even wajib?

    Eating hyenas is allowed by three imams other than our beloved Imam Abu Hanifa radi Allahu 3anhu, based on ikhtilaf on interpreting a well known hadith. Same for seafood like crabs, prawns etc. Other ikhtilafs or interpretational matters include wajib or not to do wudu after consuming camel meat (Hanbalis or extreme salafis), consuming camel urine (not allowed for Hanafis), performing wudu after eating meat directly touched by fire (well known hadith but abrogated afaik)...

    Allah knows best.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2022
  6. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    There's a couple of points I would like to raise:

    1. If a prohibition of eating something is found in the sharia and a scholar gives a reason for the prohibition from science- the prohibition is qati whereas the WISDOM behind it is unknown (to us) and scholars may try to provide one. In this instance, perhaps it really is true that fish and dairy together is haram due to a hadith. The wisdom provided by scholars (e.g. it causes leprosy, etc) is not from hadith- it is from the scholars themselves, based on their understanding of medical science. I have had this when giving dawah to non muslims and they ask for the reason behind the prohibition of pork and some muslims try to give very poor scientific reasons. In reality, the correct answer is 'the reason for the ruling is the verse of the Quran, the wisdom behind it is unknown to me, but it is certainly there'.

    2. When scholars of the past said 'x actions leads to y disease', we shouldn't be quoting them as if it's 100% fact (unless the source was Quran and hadith in which case it is certainly true). The scholar would have been using the science available to him at the time, which may now be massively outdated. In the same way, we have scholars quoting scientific research today in their lectures, for example. Should someone, in 500 years, quote them even if the science is outdated by then?

    3. Not taking care in the above causes doubts in the minds of the public and makes the scholarly class seem anti-science, anti-technology, etc. It's not a good look. Similar to the whole 'does the world orbit the sun or not' controversy- like bro, taking an anti (modern) science opinion and feeding it to the public doesn't make you more pious than the person who took the opinion that conforms to modern physics. It's OK to say the science at the time of Imam Suyuti was different to our times- it is not disparaging of the great imam in any way, he used the tools he had to the fullest! No doubt if he was around today, he would give answers based on his understanding of modern medicine instead.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2022
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Just remember, afaik, when in matters of food, if there is a command found in hadith and some two ingredients are prima facie halal (like milk and fruits), it's fiqhi implication isn't of halal and haram, but rather of recommendation or mustahab (assuming it is indeed so in hadith). Allah knows best.

    As for the english translation of Imam Suyuti's alleged work, i sent that page pic to brother Abu Hasan (due to copyright issues). Let's see what he says.
     
  8. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    Not to mention mango lassi which is so common here in the UK that even supermarkets have them on the shelves!

    Until someone can trace it back to the original source texts we should be taking these with a pinch of salt.

    The above is the famous mackerel sandwich of Istanbul served off those boats. I tried it once and was good. Nothing happened to me BTW :)
     
  9. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    “Lettuce and fish”, “garlic and onions”, “two hot dishes”.. people have these things all the time..
    I’m sure Indian curries contain onions and garlic as a combo.
     
  10. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    There is also the fruit and milk combination mentioned in that text. So are we saying milk shakes are harmful? Surely this cannot be correct.

    I had posted earlier in this forum the following.

    Sahih Muslim Book 23, Number 4982:
    In the above we have Nabidh which is traditionally made of fruits (grapes/raisins/dates).
     
  11. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    Question:
    if this fish and milk combination thing was such a known harmful thing, why are people from the West unaware of it and happily mix dairy with fish?

    Is this a certain type of fish that when combined with milk was causing reactions? Is this specific to some cultures only, in that they are sensitive to this particular combination? Or perhaps was this more relevant when milk was not yet pasteurised?

    I’m not against people not having fish and milk if they don’t wish to, I’m just trying to ascertain if this is something the Prophet ﷺ said. If it is indeed from hadith, we then need to find out how to apply this.
     
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    It only mentions "Tibb Al-Nabi" by Suyuti and also alludes to another one of the same (nearly same?) title by Ibn Al-Qayyim Al-Jawziyya and another one by Abu Nu3aim - in the translator's intro to the author (Imam Suyuti)
     
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    This is the same one i have as well. Mine is 2004 published.
     
  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I too just noticed that paragraph in my copy of this english translation

    CamScanner 03-07-2022 17.33_3.jpg
     
  15. T-Khan

    T-Khan New Member

  16. Qadiriyyah

    Qadiriyyah New Member

    tibb al-Nabawi - ibn qayyim al-jawziyah
    16466588131773794052252585264906.jpg
     
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have been contesting and challenging this for decades. none of whom i have asked (who insisted that it is prohibited) has given me proof for their claim. and i don't mean to mention them in a demeaning manner. my own teacher would avoid drinking tea with milk in it, if he had just finished a meal and had eaten fish. i prodded a couple of times, but hazrat just said 'don't eat' and i did not bother about it.

    i have not seen a single hadith that mentions the prohibition. i have checked various collections on tibb al-nabawi and i have not been able to find one mention of this prohibition. if i have missed, i will be grateful to the person who can correct me.
    tibb.png


    the state of the book "kitab al-rahmah" is a spurious attribution to suyuti. i don't recall if i have posted on the forum, but i remember discussing this with mawlana noori.

    -------
    many people do not know that fish is treated/marinated in milk in restaurants to remove the strong odour. and many dishes in the south - especially kerala (known for their consumption of fish) prepare fish with dairy as a common ingredient.

    ------
    just as tajush shariah said it, i had stumbled upon this video about this nahwi statement a few years ago

     
    Surati likes this.
  18. rawatrwi

    rawatrwi New Member

  19. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    Possibly, the idea derived from other religious practices. For instance, the Jews don't consume anything that contains the combination of meat and dairy(i.e cheese burger).
     
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    A desi Sunni mufti saab once told us on a whatsapp group that washing your body with water directly heated by sunlight can cause برص (albinism) and if im not mistaken the mufti saab alluded that thats also a recommendation in hadith/sayings of elders something to avoid. Don't know how much vitiligo and albinism are related.

    I'm assuming that doesn't count seawater, coz most people i know say seawater is actually good for many many skin conditions and most of us do actually swim in the sea in summers.

    Also I asked a european chef (who was also a dietitian) once regarding this fish and milk thing and he said what rawatrwi said, that it's preferred not to mix two different proteins of milk and fish but thats all.
     

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