Ijma'a and furū'

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by Hanafi Sunni, Dec 15, 2021.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    *Rigel's documentary. Shaykh Asrar is contracted by them but its not his own org.
  2. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    Here is another example, this recent trailer of Shaykh Asrar’s documentary that includes music. Is it safe to say he is permitting music?

  3. Adham12

    Adham12 Active Member

    What about Husn e Dhan? All these examples you gave are your own observations. Also, do we automatically assume that if Scholars come on tv or take pictures that means it’s permissible… along with every other actions which may not be according to Shariah? If Ullama sit with deviants, do we assume and conclude they permit it? I can go on.

    Sayyid Madni Miyan Saheb says picture is Haram and video is “strictly” limited to deen purposes. Does this mean since his mureeds are taking his picture and posting them, he is calling himself faasiq also? What about all those scholars who take selfies and group pics?

    Will Syed Madni Miyan Saheb’s fatwa be applied to them also? Then it begs a question, will Salah be valid behind those scholars who take pictures and selfies for personal pleasure (if Mawlana @abu Hasan can clarify this, would be greatly appreciated).

    Again question is regarding those who take selfies and making videos for things unrelated to deen. To further clarify before personal attacks are levelled, I believe both sides should respect each other’s opinion (those for and against video). Btw has any scholar gave a fatwa regarding pictures being permissible? (For my own knowledge).
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
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  4. AMQadiri

    AMQadiri Seeker

    Some of those great Ulema that you have mentioned would not even go to Hajj/Umrah if it required them to take a picture for their passport. But why is it permissible now? The reason I'm told is because it is "majboori" and without it, one couldn't perform Hajj. Likewise, the same principle is used for getting a driver's license because without it, you can't drive and hence can't get to work and feed your family. (The example of if you were starving in a forest and the only food available was pork then you would have to eat it)

    Oddly enough, it's totally permissible to get your passport picture taken for Hajj/Umrah and then use that same passport to travel the world for Islamic conferences and gatherings, especially ones with non-Desi Sunnis who openly take pictures and don't keep a fist-length beard. And when Dawate Islami uses the same "majboori" principle for broadcasting Madani Channel, they are refuted for days.

    Note - I respect all of the Sunni Ulema and I am not in favor of one group over the other. These are just some of my thoughts and counter arguments that I have heard from my teacher who is a senior Pakistani Rizvi 'aalim and Mufti.
  5. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Is the hurmah of instruments established through a definitively transmitted (qat'i ath-thuboot - mutawatir) text that is clear and unambiguous in its signification (qat'i al-dalah)?

    When presented with the text prohibiting music, if someone still holds it is permissible do they become kaafir?

    What is the hukm if they say pork is halal?
  6. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    This is my understanding As Shah Sahab Alayhir Rahma Explains it.
  7. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    What is the definition of Ijma according to you?
  8. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    There is no harm in learning.
  9. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    Ākhi Juwayni

    If any scholar listens to music does music become Halāl. So say e.g half of the shcolars start eating pork or start listening to music. Does this make it Halal as per your reasoning below?
  10. Surati

    Surati Well-Known Member

    looks like there is a difference in understanding of what “ijma” actually is here.
  11. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    Ākhī al-karīm, it would appear that you take Tajush Sharīʿah as a ḥujjah, and consider photos and videos to be a ijmāʿī issue. As a corollary, you perhaps would find it somewhat problematic if some scholar deemed it ḥalāl.

    Let us first take a look at the travelogue of Huzoor Tajush Sharīʿah to Syria and Egypt - whom he met, how he referred to certain shuyūkh with reverence, and how his associate(s) who compiled this document refer to these Shuyūkh with certain titles. This document recounts how Hazrat spent time with these individuals and engaged in scholarly persuits. To begin:
    • On pages 7-8, it is stated: "... A’lamul Ulama Ash Shaikh Abdur Raz’zaaq Halbi who is approximately one hundred 100 years old and he is regarded as being one of the most knowledgeable Aalims in Damascus and has 8 been given the title of Imam A’zam Thaani by the learned Scholars there."
      • Here is a link to the noble Shaykh appearing on video. You will note a video in which the camera is inches from his face, and another wherein he is going for a swim with family/followers in a relatively empty pool area and such stopping the camera [which he stares at briefly at the start] takes priority over going for a swim, particularly when the ḥarām is by ijmāʿ.
      • Faḍā'il: It is nice to know that such an esteemed and massive scholar still took the time to keep fit and healthy even in his advanced years.
    • On page 8, it is stated: "... Ash Shaikh Abdul Fatah Al Bazm the Grand Mufti of Damascus (who last year journeyed from Syria to Bareilly Shareef for the Urs of Aala Hazrat on an invitation by Huzoor Taajush Shariah)"
      • Looking at the respected bio, one thing that stands out is that in terms of maddhab affiliation, one clue that it has is that it mentioned he did a critical edition and commentary of a Ḥanafī work: شرح وتحقيق اللُّباب في شرح الكتاب للشيخ عبد الغني الغنيمي في الفقه الحنفي
      • As such, if we take this as an indicator that he is Ḥanafī then we can see here that he appears to have less than a fist length beard and appears on a number of videos as well.
      • One of those things is contrary to the Ḥanafī position on beards according to the Maslak (a position which I agree with and no insult nor accusations on my part are intended towards Mufti Abdul Fattāḥ) and the other according to you is an ijmāʿī issue.
      • Again, camera is relatively close to him and he still gives the speech rather than prohibiting its usage and then giving the speech.
    • On page 8, it is stated: "Huzoor Taajush Shariah first visited the Qaazi ul Quz’zaat of Hams, Ash Shaikh Sa’eed Al Kaheel"
      • Here is a link of him appearing in numerous videos from close and afar. In some cases he's even participating in a ḥaḍrah!
      • Now, what takes priority - engaging in ḥaḍrah or stopping an ijmāʿī ḥarām?
    • On page 9, it is stated: "Shaikh Hishaam Burhaani, who was also Huzoor Taajush Shariah’s class fellow whilst studying in Jaami Azhar in Egypt"
      • Here is a link of him appearing on numerous videos.
    • On page 11, it is stated: "Regarding Shaikh Faatehul Kitaani, Huzoor Taajush Shariah said, ‘I should have been the one to have gone to make his Ziyaarah’"
      • Here is a link that demonstrates that Shaykh Fātiḥ has appeared on video a number of times in such a manner that the camera is sufficiently close for him to notice it, and thus could forbid the recording as this to you is ḥarām by ijmāʿ.
      • Here is a video that is very close to the Shaykh in which multiple photographs of human beings are hung upon the walls only inches above his head. Why did the Shaykh who Hazrat accords such a reverential statement not first remove all the photographs before listening to poetry, as that is jaiz/encouraged whereas the priority would be in removing two ijmāʿī ḥarāms: photographs and videos. Forbidding evil takes priority over enjoining good.
    I could go on.

    Are they the only great ʿulamā' of their time?
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Makes the two of us. Peace out man.

    Our conversation is there for all to see who's acting smart and who's not. Enjoy your evening.
  13. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    All you have just done is reverse all i have said to you.

    I have mentioned to another brother earlier.

    Some shcolars are now saying Qawwali is an ikhtilafi issue.

    Which raises the question, then why are many scholars still striclty against it.

    So a fool like you would actually deem that ikhtilafi just cause some research scholars will deem it to be jaaiz. Thats your sill tendency to think in this manner

    Ikhtilaf fi Masail. The licence to do whatever you want in shariah and nobody will say anything to you.

    Wow. Amazing. Mufti Akhtar Alayhir Rahma as i said below is disrespectful to you but zia ul mustafa without calling him even mawlana isnt. Amazing.

    I dont want to argue with an imbecile like you. No point

    All you just try to do is act smart in every thread. And probably its to flex how good you are in every topic.

    See here, i have just mentioned great Ulama below who deem the matter to he Haraam.
    The is ijma in photo's being haraam. There is no reason believe a difference in understanding the hadith would result in such a matter being rendered ikhtilafi.

    Mufti Akhtar Rida Alayhir rahma, one of the best scholars of this era, deems the matter to be ijma-i and therefore i will consider his stance. Dont tell me not claim ijma. He is a senior scholar respected globally and accepting his stance shouldnt a pain to you.

    From mentioning Allama sahab sitting with women to now boiling down to him running a girls institute and it being against Alahadrat (which i still have to enquire if Alahadrat said) shows whose moving "of on a tangent"
  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Of course you're entitled to your choice. However, when you make factual claims of ijma3, you need to substantiate them. That's all.

    It's clear you were irked by my simple questions.

    You also went off on a tangent about hanging images on walls, digital images, printed images etc., when i just asked you to elaborate on the ijma3 you speak of. Thinking coherently doesn't seem to come easy to you.

    Yes, but we're talking about the fuqaha's deductions/interpretations from it, and their alleged ijma3 relating to those interpretations and deductions.

    Or else say clearly that it's a qat3i matter like namaz.

    You're an ignorant fool. Show me where i said subcontinental scholars should be ignored.

    When YOU talk of ijma3 you shouldn't feel so annoyed if someone asks who all the
    subscribers to the said ijma3 are. The Muslim world is bigger than the subcontinent, yes or no?

    Not in bareilly, or else I would've asked him. I have family in Bareilly, but not been able to go since 1994. I apologize, life happens.

    By the way, how dare you address him as "Mufti Akhtar"? That sounds so incredibly disrespectful to me! You should be ashamed of yourself for your bad adab towards him. Learn adab before you talk about knowledge.

    i didn't make any cheap accusations or show any disrespect. his institute is dedicated to teaching females. what does Ala Hazrat say about teaching girls to write?

    Now can you please elaborate on this ijma3 that you speak of, that's all. There's a ton of masail in deen where there's no ijma3 and people follow the scholar they trust. If that's the case with you and photography, just state so. No need to claim ijma3. It's that simple.
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  15. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member


    I did indicate we all entitled to our own choices and opinions.

    Feel free to do what you want.
    If i feel this way its my choice
  16. Shadman

    Shadman Active Member

    With your logic you accuse Awliya in Syria and Makkah committing haram [​IMG]
    Look at this photos of Shaykh Sayyid Abbas bin Alawi(Allah be pleased with him). This alone can be understood it is not Ijma'a
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
  17. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    I know so many sunnis

    Having images of Awliyah printed and hung on walls. And even in their wallets

    Go and tell him printed images are haraam.
    Then he will say but there so many Ulama have their images online. Then sit down and explain to him the difference between digital and printed images.

    Also read Alahazrat رضي الله عنه risalah on images in Fatawa Ridwiyyah.
  18. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    Mawlana Sayyid Madani Mians clip
    Have a listen

  19. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    Talking about ijma on photography

    There is A clear Hadith of our Nabi ﷺ on pictures and angels not entering the home.

    Now probably you going to say oh, digital photography is not printed photography.

    Goodluck trying to explain that.

    Logically an image is an image. Printing a photograph and closing it in a book is akin to taking a photo on your phone and saying its stored and only when you open it it shows.

    Khayr, we have our opinions on this.

    But i advise you as a sunni to respect Sunni Ulama.

    We all have the free will to follow whichever scholar we want.
    Generally the nafs is always looking for the more laxer option. So therefore many will go for this!
  20. Hanafi Sunni

    Hanafi Sunni Active Member

    Ok so
    Daata Sahab رضي الله عنه and Khwaja Sahab رضي الله عنه and Mujadid Alf Thani رضي الله عنه and Ālahadrat رضي الله عنه

    All these are from subcontinent, so we should ignore their teaching as they from subcontinent. Thats your mentality.

    Regarding Allama Zia ul Mustafa Sahab Qibla who is known as Muhadith e Kabeer, who has thousands of students, whose probably done more work for deen than your grandfathers time up to now including you. You refer to him has Zia ul Mustafa Sahab, shows the amount of respect you have for a senior scholar of Ahlus Sunnah.
    And what a cheap excuse against such a pious Aalim. That he was standing with females. Whereas i know Allama sahab clarrified that saying that All those were close family relatives who were in pardah.

    So stop these cheap lame accusations on an Aalim and learn some adab before you speak about Ilmi matter. Knowledge without Adab is of no use.

    Where were you When Mufti Akhtar Alahir Rahma was in barreilly? Why didnt you got and explain to him that his stance on it being ijma is wrong? Nah you didnt have the audacity to sit in front of that fearless Wali of Allah to question him.

    So many Arab scholars are now being entrapped by deviants and the likes of Shaykh Yaqubi etc are apparent. So why do you have an issue with the ethnicity of these scholars. The fact they they one of the best of their time i.e. Huzoor Mufti e Azam and Huzoor Ahsanul Ulama and so many others as i mentioned is all we need.

    So you can keep blabbering here about these pious personalities, and it doesnt affect their status or rank in the court of Allah.

    But you disrespecting and throwing cheap accusations on these Ulama will seriously be detrimental to your aakhirah. Did you speak to Allama sahab and actually ask him what was going in that video? Or whats happening at his insititute?

    All i can see is either on social media or on Sunniport. People calling Mufti AKHTAR رضي الله عنه and Allama sahab extremists or harsh just cause they were strict on videography which today is a celebrity culture for most scholars.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021

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