malm sultanpuri?

Discussion in 'Poetry' started by AbdalQadir, May 31, 2021.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    another point that I was trying to get at (and which was misunderstood as the 'ostrich syndrome') - what sort of of people are attracted to these hipster mullahs?

    If I am on YouTube and I type in a search term - I am served a variety of options. There will be deobandis, sunnis, modernists, jahils etc.

    What would make me choose one over another?

    If I am type-A, I will go for say sh. asrar or mawlana naveed or sh. munnawar ateeq and find them worth my while.

    if I am type-B, I will go for some "academic" like winters or brown.

    if I am type-C, I will go for hipsters like dawaman or this monkey.

    if I am type-D, I will go for etc. etc.

    so when you want to "convert" people and bring them back - you need to be clear about what type you are aiming at.

    for example, many people's core life principle is: life should be easy and free of fuss.

    now these are the ones who usually go for sulh-kulli or perennialist speakers.

    how do you plan to convert them?

    my theory is that there is some inherent, deeply seated character trait which predispose people towards certain types of personalities.

    even in the wider world - some will be attracted to trump, others will want liberals like obama etc.

    this is due to a number of social, psychological factors which are too many to list in one place.

    for example, some people are predisposed to falling in for cults - even if they manage to extricate themselves from the clutches of one, they will fall for another. unless, that is, they learn to recognise their weaknesses and adjust for that.

    likewise, there are some who have sulh-kull traits deeply impressed on their psyche (for whatever reasons) - they are forever beyond your reach.

    no matter how sweet you talk or how many proof you give - you can't win them over.

    likewise, there are the hipster-philes. they won't like sh. asrar one bit. he will appear boring and pedantic and self-righteous to them.

    even if they find that one hippie is a charlatan - they will just move on to another.

    now, if the bulk of abu-lies fans are from this lot - what can you do about it?

    writing paper after paper - quoting authority after authority will not convince them.

    nor will becoming a hippie ourselves - because the message you bear is inherently repulsive to the hippie-cionadoe.

    give him the message that hr likes - and he will lap it up.

    is it worth our while to get all worked up about this lot?

    I don't think so.

    So am I saying we should keep preaching to the choir?

    not at all!

    but we need to be aware that the "numbers" are not always the best predictors of "success".


    so - define your target audience - and speak to it.

    if you don't define it clearly and just try to scoop in everyone with one strategy - how far can you go.

    Alahazrat refuted people with fatwaa - and when he felt that having attestations from ulama of haramayn will convince more people and reassure others - he went that extra mile.

    so he suited his strategy to his audience.

    there were 1000s who remained unconvinced.

    No one can accuse him of being dismissive - if, for example - he did not have a traveling theatre go around and enact comic plays denouncing the devnandis with satire and wit.

    just because "youth" are more attracted to "fun" rather than "fatwa".

    he wrote a lengthy monograph - on impermissibility of shortening the beard - at the end of which he lamented that most people of his time "abnaa e zamaana" would rather read inch thick novels rather than a few mm thick fatwa - and that they are quickly bored by religious literature.

    so what did he do? he created a short tabulated version of the proofs he had detailed in the fatwa.

    did he also write a thriller about a fully bearded proponent who wins all fights and the main adversary happens to lose the final battle just cause he was cleanly shaven?

    he drew the line at a point - and let the disinterested wallow in their folly.

    "catching the imagination of all and sundry" is what gave us ertugrul gazi - and the youth immediately started fandom wikis for it and binge watching full seasons multiple times.

    but did it convert to anything on the ground? did all the ertugrul fans march into Jerusalem and smashed the Israeli occupation into dust?

    hence, my concern about using better and more realistic comparisons than monkeys.

    what's your target audience? how many can you reach? how many have the time and inclination to stay with you?

    all that goes into measuring "success" - rather than raw numbers.

    wa Allahu a'alam
     
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I think there are two threads of discussion intertwined in this one thread.

    I was speaking about the "style" and the "effects" - that it is supposedly producing.

    ---

    just to clear the record - my point was not about not refuting deviants or ignoring thid particular monkey or his ilk.

    it was all about not trying to compete with them in the means they employ to achieve their ends.

    as I have maintained in all my posts - people like sh. Asrar (and if there are any other) are doing quite fine - by addressing the real issues and not merely trying to harvest fanbases for personal enrichment and glory.

    comments like: "look how he is doing it" - imply that we take a leaf out of his book. and that is what I have spoken against.

    we might need more people doing the right stuff and/or better ways to get things done - but certainly not pander to people's (read youth) darker sides - or exploit their vulnerabilities.

    which is why I suggested starting a quality magazine. What do you suppose I had in mind if not well researched essays on the myriad topics relevant to current times?

    we need to establish and nurture a network of first class researchers to produce quality content.

    we don't need to wear fancy dresses or allure people with ripped muscles or street talk - even if someone is already doing that and arresting eyeballs.

    I hope my stance is clear.
     
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Any average indian Muslim, and even many many so called ulama (yes Barelwis too) will think initiatives like this may soothe the pain of indian muslims or might win them some positive publicity, but only Ala Hazrat or those blessed enough to have studied his fatawa at some level, will see these kinds of things as detrimental to deen AND interests of Muslims:

    https://thewire.in/society/covid-19-relief-effort-muslims

    we should only bother about our own and leave these dherhs to their own miseries!

    ...and newer fitnahs are being sent forth when the old ones are not adequately refuted yet. the qadiani project was launched by the british just when people had come to grips with the menace of wahabism. these days the whole process is running on autopilot!
     
  4. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

  5. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    It was only recently when TLP was protesting (against the Pakistani government for not kicking out the French ambassador), that a Pakistani Judge told one of the TLP members "very soon you're gonna need permission from us to pray namaz as well." (this was in the context of the TLP member discussing his right to peaceful protest if I remember correctly).
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i think we need to get down to the root of the problem. malm and others like him have one aim only - to comply with the ruling culture of the day.

    that was the same aim of the dajjal qadiani too. to groom people into being utterly loyal western subjects.

    now what does that ruling culture entail in our times. let's start with one or two example:

    1. legalizing gay marriages. in Ala Hazrat's times, any Sunni or even wahabi or rafidi could have dismissed it with a one line fatwa, it's haram and those who believe it being permissible are murtads. in these times, the likes of malm are launching "nuanced" attacks on basics of Islam from more than one angle... and they need responses at all those levels. this thing is being hammered into our kids. see this rhyme for a 4-8 yr old age group - https://www.amazon.com/Hips-Drag-Queen-Go-Swish-ebook/dp/B07XDNJB14 . being dismissive that that's not us, or that it ain't our problem, is stupidity, specially for Muslims of the west, and increasingly so for the Muslims of the east. the amount of hypocrites selling western agenda in our times is simply not funny. as @abu Hasan said, it's no longer fringe but moving into mainstream.

    2. feminism with all its bizarre philosophies and daleels; and talfiq across gender roles

    3. pluralism ("don't even call a kafir a kafir" and other such nonsense. there are enough Muslims in the subcontinent too whose religious and value system is just like shahrukh khan's or any other bollywood murtad and you won't even know it till you drill for it. i'm saying from experience. every once in a while you come across a guy who prays and fasts and doesn't do drugs/alcohol etc. and then suddenly you'd be baffled hearing him say 'muslims and hindus have different styles of worshiping' and are left thinking should i consider him a zindiq or maybe force myself to draw a favorable tawil, if any. the amount of people who say 'playing holi doesn't make you hindu' is mindboggling. when you tell them to have shame and that that is precisely why the bhakts are gaining on them, they go off on other tangents)

    4. hadith denial. (malm is very clever. he's not an outright "Quranist". he just denies any authentic hadith at whim, 'coz he knows being an outright hadith denier will land him fatwas of kufr from all of Sunnis as well as wahabis)

    5. the west is a well-wisher of Islam. it's only the rogue elements like the isis that its against

    6. "celebrating christmas is an act of thawab"

    7. dajjal will be a new world order, a system of governance and control of masses, he will not be an individual, so say people who have been brainwashed by the 'new world order'! talk about a recursive loop!

    ... the list goes on (these may not all be positions of malm, but are the dominant modernist positions of these times in general)

    -------

    another thing to note

    all of this fawahish is not peddled in the name of modernism per se, but rather under "Daleels" to make them sound more "Islamic" and "Orthodox"

    take for example this one line from the malm promo linked on my initial post

    https://malmtopicindex.wordpress.com/about/
    ok so we on this forum know that malm has as much to do with the hadith in question as iblis himself!

    but a summary dismissal on our part is shooting ourselves in the foot with an automatic, 'coz misinterpretations and misapplications of that hadith and many many other ahadith and verses is what malm will do to spread his fitnah.

    we are quickly heading towards times when we will even have to offer detailed daleels for just the 5 daily prayers. it's about time we saw the enemies of deen for what they are and stopped living in fool's paradise.

    Allah reward you and your parents and teachers if you feel this is "common knowledge" for Muslims and i already know this stuff (as you should, as these are basics of deen) but don't be dismissive and think that the sheeple are like you. i assure you enough doubts have been planted by the enemies of Islam on even the most basic aspects of deen...

    it's being made deliberately doubtful at worst, being peddled as a difference of opinion at best!

    it's mind boggling when you sit down to think who's worse - is it clowns like malm or imran hossein; or is it a bit more polished and well acknowledged "shuyukh" like mark hanson; or is it the new crop of "tolerant" wahabis like yasir qadhi and others? see this for example - https://www.themwl.org/en/chartermakkah
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i think unbeknown should stop being belligerent.

    no need to in that "manner".

    as AQ said, we need to address those points. and i agree with him. if i had nothing else to do, i would work on: slashing razor punk.
    in fact, a few of us can chip in and work on it. and each of us can retain their own style of refutation but the overall structure should be thus:


    1. the topic.

    2. jist of MALM said.

    3. the correct sunni position

    4. proofs.

    5. call out distortions and plain lies by the abominable razorman.

    6. citations


    ======
    those comfortable with videos can do video radd; those with text do text.

    every age brings out monsters. and in every age there are people who fight them. we cannot hope for monsters to follow rules or behave in a civilised manner.

    btw, if you have ever seen mirza ghulam qadiani's corpus, you will probably realise that the danger this clown poses to future generations. in fact, mirza's rants, claims and 'interpretations' are far more revolting than the razor-punk. in the beginning ulama ignored him. alahazrat himself wrote that he said: 'this must be a madman' but when the fitna became serious, they took up arms to fight the menace.

    we seem to be in a similar situation. and we must come down with all force.

    the deobandis, as usual will play ball with such jokers who then become psycopaths. and don't expect the hypocrites to talk about this product from one of their factories who is turning into malmastein.


    no one is saying that you should hang a knife to compete with a shaving blade, or get piercings on your nose and lips to compete with the moron's ear-rings.

    but every topic that he has listed needs a rebuttal. the sunni viewpoint. the right alternative.

    but we must do it. when it is the fringe, you can ignore it. when it threatens to become mainstream, you must confront it.

    Allah knows best.
     
    Mohammed Ali and Abdullah Ahmed like this.
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    just for consideration, I could turn this around and say that Alahazrat lived at a time and in a place where a thumping majority of people cared and we are living in times in which people simply don't care anymore.

    there were traveling theatres, "melas", drinking clubs and "kothas" back then too. there was also a culture of adulation for 'angrezi tehzeeb' and 'angrezi taleem'.

    there were sell-outs too - and 'modern' thinkers by the dozens.

    but there were many many "saleem al fitrah" as well - perhaps they outnumbered the bad apples, as silent majorities usually do. These people had sense enough to value deen over the dunya - perhaps because they were surrounded by adversity and hardships and not by opulence and luxury as we are today - most everywhere, and definitely in the west.

    then the modern tech and communications scene - with its believable but false promises and the resulting undying hopes, of perennial progress and luxury, which it has enabled - has transformed people's outlook on life so radically and in such large numbers that one simply finds no parallel for it in the past.

    what it all means is that we are dealing with vast swathes of populations for whom deen doesn't even have secondary importance - it doesn't figure in their priority lists at all. or at least "real" deen doesn't.

    now the only way left to pander to their "insensibilities" is to tell them what they want to hear - which the devils like malm are doing very well - and making a profit in the bargain.

    something which you and I don't or can't or - at least - should not want to do.

    perhaps the problem is neither in the message nor in the messenger - but in those who are being addressed?

    I don't know.

    disclaimer: this is not a universal judgement nor some definite claim - it's a bleak hypothesis.
     
  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes, I was replying in the context of the thread - it was about a delinquent, so I said what I said.

    the *real* discussion should be on: how to better engage the youth without being profane and facetious about religious matters.

    now, there could be several ways of going about it - depending on age group, geography, educational background etc. and I am not batting for one over the other and certainly not discounting the subject matter altogether.

    but there's this insidious trend of using theatrics and glitz to draw in viewership - and that is what I am railing against.

    Because when ends begin to justify means - and the ends themselves are nothing more than thinly veiled self-promotion and self-worship - why, we have a perfectly satanic festival of dunya worship in the making!

    Now those "self-important" pirs and naath-khwaans that @AbdalQadir was speaking about - they stand in the same line as this baffoon malm - differing only in their modus operandi.

    One group attempts to entice people with shiny jhubbas and sky-scraping imamas and the other with figure-hugging t-shirts, football and slang speak.

    both pose as "reformers" and "redemeers" and the "real guy" only to exploit the confusion, gullibility, ignorance, and a strong affinity for drama, glitz and "fun" on the one hand - and the yearning for a "better life" on the other - traits which characterize so much of our youth today - across the board - and perhaps across time.

    So despite the appearances - under the skin, they are one and the same.

    I also don't think he has hit some pot of gold on how to attract people - he's a regular conman - just the new kid on the block. Let the novelty wear off and you will see that the spot light will pass on to another maniac in another place, in another garb.

    I don't think it wise to attach any importance to such transitory "achievements".

    I rest my case.

    wa Allahu a'alam
     
  10. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    @Unbeknown

    I think you made your dislike of MALM quite clear. I’m not a proponent of MALM nor do I think he’s the yardstick. My post could well be about anybody, replace MALM with anyone and the points I made would still be valid.

    The point was that our speakers are unapproachable and unrelatable. I’m not saying they need to act like MALM. You can be engaging and still maintain your dignity - The two are not mutually exclusive (which is why I gave Mawlana Husein as an example)

    Learning and the practical part of teaching are two different ladders. You could be an Alim but unable to explain the deen to a 5 year old. While some are just da’ees and can simplify ideas better than an Alim.

    We need to do better is what I’m saying.

    Sincerity yes, but with action. Not sincerity and being inefficient. The Deen is not for anyone to sell. It’s about people’s salvation. The youth is worth our effort, actually everyone is. If our Ulama really care about the people then they would do anything in their power to be more engaging/pro-active and as a result impact as many people as possible as did Alahazrat.

    When the Najdis were attacking our Aqida, alahazrat went out there and responded to them in a way that was very relevant and engaging for the people. His genius can still be seen nowadays in his works.
     
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    now, who is for starting a magazine like this - please to raise your hands.
     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, that was a response to the phantom "magnetism" that his pr lady was raving mad about.

    --

    oh if you want to give him a run for his money on that "manner" (what an ill fitting word!) - why then, you will have to go hunting through the film academies for - um - mr. beans or teletubbies or justin bieber or ..

    you need idiots for that kind of a job - no self-respecting person will lower himself to that level.

    in the end, it's not about the scores - it's about doing our bit with sincerity - if no one's buying, why, there are other markets where our wares will be better appreciated.
    --

    Now, I am not saying we need to stick to traditional methods or that there is no room for innovation.

    But I guess we can use better comparisons than monkeys - no matter how many admirers they may have.

    it's an age of vanishing ethics, after all.
     
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i agree with @Surati

    and this thing needs to be tackled at a grassroots level. even parents should tell their children to socially boycott any and every marginally self-important peer. we should go ruthless on self important celebrity shuyukh and naatkhwans with no exceptions whatso ever.

    this is not bad adab or being disrespectful of ulema, rather it is the way of our elders. yes, we can't follow the student-teacher takallufaat of a 200 yrs before, but then again, neither do we live in those societies and times, nor do we have the sincere people of those times
     
  14. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    I feel concerned about the huge number of youth followers who are being misguided by this person. I know people from different countries who listen to him, some believing his every word and some not necessarily agreeing with what he says but enjoying the manner in which he delivers his points.

    I think we all know about MALM and his countless outrageous comments. I don’t think that playing the man instead of the ball here is helpful. We are here to fight for the truth and propagate maslak e alahazrat. If my opponent stinks and is ugly, none of that matters if he is scoring more goals. We can’t be in denial. We need to find ways to score more goals - was my point.

    I think it’s a lot to do with the delivery:
    • Most of our scholars are unapproachable.
    • they are not relatable (example: some dinosaurs keep holding on to their positions in mosques and talk about topics that are out of touch with reality).
    • They are not technologically savvy.
    • Most are not familiar with modern lingo and current affairs.
    • they are knowledgeable ماشاء الله but super boring (One of the people I have found who has good delivery, is relatable and engaging even online is Mawlana Husein Qadri).
    • they preach to 40s and over even though they think that they are preaching to the youth.
    • some use technical language or use words that most lay people will need a dictionary to understand even in English.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    but that is not enough, and this is not a criticism of Sheikh Asrar.

    one person only has 24 hours in a day.

    we need more people than that at the sheikh/ulema level, and also a lot of muballigheen at the common person level who can multiply their efforts.

    when i say muballigheen in this modernism context, i'm talking not just the Urdu books reading, kurta-pyjama-imama wearing Islami bhais of DI or SDI who can talk about the fazail of wudu but not well versed to engage in/with/against post-modern trash like feminists (or even the bjp-bhakts for that matter), but rather the Sunni common guys well versed in modern concepts like feminism, gay movement, liberalism, populist ideologies etc. (or for that matter talking about the benefits of raga over modi with very clever 'divide and rule' undertones towards hindus) who have been trained to a certain extent by the likes of Asrar Rasheed and can refute such garbage by engaging with other common folk such as themselves - at the social media, MSM, and grassroots levels.

    i don't know if Sheikh Asrar's approach is focused on imparting knowledge as a teacher only, or also in grooming and nurturing others to be like pro-active refuters like himself, even if only 10%!

    have you seen some old videos of zakir nalayaq's peace tv, where kids are literally learning to debate and speak publicly just like zakir himself and even being taught the same idiotic arguments he presents. the likes of Asrar Rasheed need to do some similar stuff in grooming other muballigheen.
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but it is a worthwhile project - debunking rotten ideas.
     
    Umar99 likes this.
  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    eww... such nonsense.

    Most of it are myths of his own making. Just lists out all the problems that Christianity faces and swap in "Islam" and "Muslims".

    the few relevant issues - sh. asrar is already addressing in an authentic and civilized manner.

    Wasn't this rotten parody of a human being trying hard to normalise "homophilia" by slandering Imam Nawawi?

    So there's a market for such trash talk - fine. No surprises.

    He will get more "likes" if he hosts porn stars (if he hasn't already) - and the "youth" will feel "connected" to him more than ever.

    We can't help if some people have developed fondness for perverted screeching monkeys who spread fahhashi among people.

    These days a whole host of unnatural and anti-fitrah tendencies have taken root among the peoples -especially in the West.

    Besides, he looks as ugly as he talks (whether in t-shirt or saree) and I dare say he stinks worse than an over-worked donkey.

    Anyone who finds him likeable has no aesthetic sense left in him...
     
    Noori likes this.
  18. Surati

    Surati Active Member

    Reality check: young people really like MALM and feel that they can relate to him.

    We need to ask ourselves why that is.
     
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    A line translated/plagiarized and hilariously used by malm or his fans

    https://malmtopicindex.wordpress.com/about/

    [​IMG]

    On a serious note, that about page must be read by the likes of Sheikh Asrar and other English speaking muftis and they must seriously address all the points mentioned there. Malm is a gonner and we're not concerned with him, but that intro pretty much talks about all the pressure points on the faith of modern Muslim youth not just in the west, but back home too.
     

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