Molana Afzal Qadri against Sa'ad Rizvi

Discussion in 'Smalltalk' started by AbdalQadir, Dec 2, 2020.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I just asked a brother well connected in Pakistan. This is what he said (more or less):

    Allah knows best, what I feel is just that they (TLP leadership) don't want bad publicity in the immediate aftermath of Khadim Rizvi sahib's demise, so they're just accepting condolences (which are most probably political gimmicks to cash in on TLP popularity in the case of budmazhabs), but like everyone's suggesting, it can backfire badly lest they too have some shrewd political point scoring strategy up their sleeves, as I mentioned.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  2. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    None of us know the actual reason as to what was happening there, whether or not it was something political or the shaytan Tariq Jameel was there solely by himself for his own personal motives. Allah knows best what exactly was going on so I will prefer to restrain on commenting on this matter until and unless it becomes apparent later on.

    However I will comment on the poor man who was sitting down at the front and then shunned behind to make space for Saad Rizvi. This has become quite a common trait even at jummas where I have seen the 'ordinary' person being shunned to the behind rows to make space for the 'big' ones, whether it be some visiting maulanas, naat khwans, or 'committee' members who would prefer occupying the front saffs. In the time of the Sahabah it used to be first come first serve!

    No regards to the heart of the poor Muslim's feelings who just got shunned behind. No Muslim should ever consider himself better than his brother no matter what, its the ego that will lead most to Jahannam (Allah forbid)!

    P. S. In the case of this video could they not have shunned the shaytan behind rather than shunning the 'nobody'?
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Only Allah knows best but to me it just looked like he was serious and respectful around the grave of a Muslim scholar, who is also his father, while maintaining his composure around that badbakht.

    Guess we will find out more in a few days.
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Opportunism and one-upmanship matters in politics.

    If tariq came uninvited, he's certainly gonna be having a plan to cash this event. He's most probably going to paint a picture that tablighis love all or that he was shown hospitality by Barelvis we are all one happy family or something like that to pull in more followers.

    Saad Rizvi and TLP should also look for some political mileage from this, something like see our cause is just, even our detractors are walking towards us.
  5. Sunnisoldier

    Sunnisoldier Active Member

    People are upset that Haafiz Saad looked like he was showing him great respect and even touching his heart and chest when meeting Tariq. This isn't something Allamah sb would have ever done.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    yes but where are the fatawa of the Sunni ulema declaring him murtad? Saad Rizvi himself is not a mufti, so he has no formal ground to stand on to make a solitary pronouncement of takfir on this dajjal!

    i have said it multiple times before, this silence for the sake of reputation (personal reputation or that of "Barelvis") or maslaha will come back to bite us. to date, i haven't seen a proper fatwa of takfir on tahir too from Pakistani Sunnis

    if there was a standing fatwa of kufr upon tariq, at least he would have had some ground to stand on. on the contrary, we have fatawa and organized campaigns against fellow Sunnis, by people claiming to be Sunnis and Sayyids!

    i agree 100% with your point, but unfortunately due to the ineptitude of other Sunnis at large, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    that's a fact of modern life, moreso in politics. you can't hide from the cameras or people's mobile phones. you either do something or you don't. but don't expect something you do to not be recorded.

    in the very least, we have no shortage of backstabbers in our ranks. the camera is here to stay. we have to live with it.

    it's just my guess, but they (Saad and his advisors) made a spot decision in the heat of the moment.

    if they showed tariq the door, and assuming it was his cameramen he brought, he would have a perfect opportunity to play victim and cry crocodile tears - boohoohoo, i came to offer condolences to you for your father and TLP founder because he was a Muslim scholar and Ashiqe Rasool (3alaihis salam). no sinister intention. i did it for the love of deen and Prophet, and you even took away my basic right to pray for another deceased Muslim. i'm such a lowlife, maybe i deserve it. o Allah, please let the earth open up and swallow me!

    plus it's not a case of pleading helplessness. tariq didn't come there to give a lecture to them. he came posing as a down to earth aajiz Muslim who loves Khadim Hussein saab for his services to deen, so trashing him in those circumstances would make TLP look like the bad guys to the jahil awam and media. the dua was lead by Saad, meaning they were as hospitable to the "mehman" as could be, but they also didn't let a budmazhab take over their turf.

    plus don't forget, tariq is a professional (you know the word) and Saad Rizvi is just starting his life in the public sphere. he pulled a fast one for whatever reason or intention he had in mind, and in my opinion it was dealt with in the best possible way they could deal! (saying with the assumption tariq showed up uninvited and they had no hand in it. if he was called, Sunnis need some investigations)

    Allah knows best.
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  7. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Well-Known Member

    i definitely agree with your point. perhaps its possible that after such a tragic loss, Hafiz Saad is still recovering emotionally and hence has let his guard down a bit (hopefully just temporary)

    Also, perhaps, since Tariq specifically came to them and they didnt reach out to him, they are being more restrained and are assuming positively, that perhaps Tariq can be guided to the Haq through the Waseela of Allamah Khadim.

    Wallahu Alam
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    that doesn't include people who have personally - on record - uttered kufriyaat - multiple times.

    otherwise - it beats the purpose - completely.

    Would one join hands with a blasphemer - while protesting against blasphemies?

    In that case, you would not be fighting for a principle, but just personalities.

    I didn't mean it in that sense - I meant allowing photos to be taken whilst the rascal was there.

    He should have just been shown the door. that's it.

    Mawlana khadim sahib's mazaar is not some centuries old structure - who immediate neighbors have all left and so it's become a sort of "common property" managed by a corrupt trust - where you cannot stop specific people from visiting.

    This happened yesterday. TLP should still be calling the shots. They should still be having the right to turn back anyone - even if on mere whim.

    If they plead helplessness on their own turf - how can one expect them to shake the thrones of the Pharaos and Nimrods of the age ?!

    I am not passing any summary judgements on hafiz sab or TLP - I am saying - if we are to go by the be-baak attitude of the erstwhile leader of TLP, we should expect a little more grit from its newly installed premier, a devil-may-care sort of demeanor.

    but we are expecting something different - better - from the new movement. The old ways should not be invoked as precedents - especially by those espousing a revolution - a complete turn around.

    I do not presume to be qualified enough to criticize people who have been on the frontlines.

    However, these are my personal opinions and apprehensions - call it FUD if you will.

    Allah knows best.
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I am not saying that Tariq Zaleel was invited. Probably he just gatecrashed with videographers in tow. Still doesn't make good optics.

    What would Tariq Zaleel's supporters now say to visiting mazaars?
  10. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Well-Known Member

    it seems that the video was edited to cut out the last few seconds where tariq extends his hand towards Hafiz Saad
  11. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Well-Known Member

    in this video you will notice that Hafiz Saad comes a bit later and somewhat reluctantly makes his way towards the front where tariq is standing. and it seems that the primary reason he is even going towards the front is because he is being ushered there by others (perhaps Jahil Awamunnas). And perhaps, since it his is very own father's mazar, he doesnt want to make a scene.
    You can tell that the whole situation is awkward, as if Hafiz Saad is thinking in his head "you dont belong here. what are you doing here?"
    And Hafiz Saad makes his general duaa as usual, and for him, it just so happens that there is someone he doesnt like there. Seems to me more of a coincidence that Tariq showed up right around the time Hafiz Saad was on his way to visit his father. Youll notice, that in the beginning of this video, either Hafiz Saad doesnt know tariq is there, or even if he does know, then he just doesnt seem interested in meeting him initially.

    At the end, Tariq awkwardly initiates to shake Hafiz Saad's hand and in the moment, Hafiz Saad reluctantly accepts. And Hafiz Saad has a very serious look on his face the entire time. No smile.
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I think let's not jump the gun yet till the facts are clear.

    If tariq came himself to offer his condolences, support etc, then they just let him visit the mazar and do what he came for.

    Anyone opposing this should also oppose the caretakers of what 99% of dargahs permitting hindus and all sorts of people visiting and coming to take "fayz" and all our muftis and mawlanas watch silently.

    If they invited him deliberately for a photo op, then this needs to be investigated further-

    Did they also call DI and many other Sunni orgs to somehow form some sort of a coalition for Namoose Risalat? (On another thread, I posted a link to a tweet by Abdul Habib Attari in which Mawlana ─░lyas prays for Khadim Rizvi sahib, but the tweet was deleted for some reason from Abdul Habib Attari account, something I didn't appreciate)

    When Mawlana Shah Ahmed Noorani was campaigning to declare the qadiyanis kafirs, he took devbandis, wahabis and shias too on his side. He said he agrees that devs are agents of kafirs but on this matter we can take them for a common cause on our side.

    Afaik from some reputed mufti saab's, Noorani sahib clearly said that when it's an issue concerning the entire millah (pitted against these open unabashed murtads), we will even take wahabis or shias with us. When it's an issue concerning Ahlus Sunnah only, then of course we stand against ahlul bidah.

    Is TLP working on this guideline now, that on the issues of Namoose Risalat and anti france stance, anti qadiyani stance, and the blasphemy law in pakistan, they will stand with all those who share their views on these specific points?
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    shocking all the same.
    Can anyone imagine a leader of naamoos-e-risalat movement shaking hands with salmaan taseer?

    this shaytan has used unbifitting language against Allah ta'ala, His Books and the companions - even Prophets.

    once you begin making concessions - it's a slippery slope..

    this is appalling - giving space to a munafiq to pose for photo shoots.

    Whatever Allamah khadim sahib might have stood for - this is certainly not in line with it.

    I had, very cautiously, begun to entertain some hopes of something good coming out of this, maybe I have been hasty?
  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Politics (or political movements) make strange bedfellows. That video is here:
  15. ghulam-e-raza

    ghulam-e-raza Well-Known Member

    So, I hear Tariq Jameel the opportunist went to meet with Hafiz Saad for Taziyat, they shook hands and met...what a shame, not a good start
  16. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    No, he was not, the family has explained that he was already suffering from fever before going to faiz abad
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    If Shaykh Khadim Rizvi was poisoned, then that's only evidence that principled politics do in fact work, and that opposing forces felt the need to silence his voice.

    There's a lot of speculation on that in Pakistan as to the timing of his sudden demise. A week after anti french rally...
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  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    This is the larger question here. Should or should not Muslims get involved in the filth that is current politics?

    I too used to think/believe it's a dajjalic process in our times and you can't enter it and come out clean.

    Ala Hazrat denounced political involvement in his time in India, but back then, Muslims were in a much different position. Besides, he denounced the flimsy priorities of the (deobandi and wahabi inclined) reformers who aligned with hindus (mushrikin) in the name of indian nationalism in order to kick the british (Ahle kitab, and therefore lesser evil) out (and devbandis are happy to call him a British agent for this). I wish some of the current political theories and buzzwords were coined in his age so that he could have used it, Ala Hazrat shredded "indian nationalism" to smithereens in favor of "Islamism" and focusing on the millat. He was pro Muslim not pro Desi.

    But what's the alternative to/outcome of non participation in modern politics?

    Is it a vicious circle? If we don't participate, Islam gets weak, and if we do, we risk losing iman too?

    I've seen Sunni muftis suggesting that it's about time DI got directly involved in Pakistani politics. Some common folk even suggested a merger of DI and TLP to make a mega Sunni political force. Political power is necessary for helping Islam.

    Also do we differentiate between Muslim countries and kafir countries? Will political involvement of Muslims in UK give the same results it did in pakistan for example, or will we only end up getting more Majid nawaz's and Sadiq khan's as opposed to Khadim Rizvi's. What about india? Or do we build lobbying and influencing forces rather than direct political parties in places like india usa etc? But that too is a big mess. Just have a look at ISNA and CAIR in usa.

    Allah knows best.
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but imam nawawi left so much in his short 47-48 years that people cannot do in 90 years!

    and ~800 years since his passing, his books are widely read and explained; and are the BEST textbooks. that is the barakah of imam nawawi and an indication of his ikhlas, is the acceptance of his books.

    - al-arbayin
    - riyad al-salihin
    - al-adhkar
    - al-tibyan
    - taqrib (usul al-hadith)
    - bustan al-arifin
    - minhaj (sh. muslim)
    - tahzib al-asma wa'l lughat
    - adab al-mufti wa'l mustafti (in which he consolidate 3 works on the same topic by saymari, khatib and ibn Salah)

    and other works on shafiyi fiqh, minhaj (mukhtasar al-muHarrar), rawDah, majmu', iyDah fi'l manasik, fatawa, sharh al-wasit, nukat etc.

    alHamdulillah, i have been blessed with the good fortune of reading his books and the karamah of his books is that an ordinary person like me, an ajami with ordinary knowledge of Arabic can easily understand the shaykhs works. may Allah allow us to share from the barakah bestowed upon him.

    you should check out tajuddin subki as well. he was only 44 when he passed away. raDiyAllahu anhu.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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