Mutazali beliefs

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Ibn Hadi, Dec 7, 2017.

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  1. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Yes I understand. This is why Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal made takfir of the people who say "Allah jism la kal Ajsaam"
    I feel that is the safest path to follow.
  2. Ibn Furak

    Ibn Furak New Member

    Assalamu alaykum, brother.

    Do some people claim that it is only bidah and not kufr even if the person saying "Allah is a jism" knows the meaning of jism?

    The word "jism" doesn't carry a meaning that is befitting for Allah. It's meanings are only related to bodies. So if one knows this and still says "Allah is a jism", can one then say "But I meant wujuud"? Of course he can't.

    If a person knows that the word "son" means male child, can he say "Prophet `iisaa is the son of Allah" and then say "I meant he is the habiib of Allah"?
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Umar99 likes this.
  4. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @Umar99 - if you won't cite your sources, i will delete your posts. unless those are your own deductions, translations etc.
  6. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Yes I agree 100%.
  7. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    The term Shay, when used for Allah, is actually negation of Jism as Imam e Azam RadiAllahu Anhu stated in his Al-Fiqh Al-Akbar:

    ومعنى الشىءِ إثباتُهُ بلا جسمٍ ولا جوهرٍ ولا عَرَضٍ، ولا حدَّ لهُ، ولا ضدَّ لهُ، ولا ندَّ له، ولا مِثلَ لهُ.

    “When we say that Allah is shay’ we mean that He exists without a body, essence, or temporary attributes. He does not have a limit, an opposite, a substitute, or a like in any sense of likeness at all.”

    (Al Fiqh Al Akbar 63)

    Therefore it is a contradiction to refer to Allah as a Jism with intention of Shay.
  8. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Yes but apparently according to some people on here, if someome uses the word "jism" to mean "thing" (shayy) then it is a bidah but not kufr.

    I know all those references you gave but Jazak Allah it is always good to be reminded.
  9. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    I know about question 4, the answer is that yes it is blasphemy without a doubt:

    Al-Ghazaaliyy says in “Iljaam Al-ˆawaam” that denying bodily characteristics for Aļļaah is a primary duty of all Muslims, scholars and commoners alike. He makes it clear that believing that Allaah is a body (i.e. something that has size) is kufr and idolatry:

    "I mean by “body” something with length, width and depth that prevents something else to exist where it exists…. So if it came to someone’s mind that Aļļaah is a body composed of limbs, then this person is an idol worshiper. The reason is that all bodies are created, and to worship something created is kufr. After all, idol worship is kufr because the idol is created, and the idol is created because it is a body. Hence, the one who worships a body is a kaafir by the consensus of the Muslim Nation, both the salaf and those later."


    Abuu Manşuur Al-Bagħdaadiy states about those who say that Aļļaah has a body, or that events happen in Him or His attributes (such as hearing or seeing one thing after another as they happen to creation) :

    “All those who disagreed with them say that they are blasphemers, so in this respect they are the worst of all the deviant sects (‘Uşuulu-d-Diin, 338).”

    He also commented: “By claiming that Aļļaah has events happen to Him, they ruined for themselves the proof of the monotheists which holds that bodies are creations since they have events in them. Based on this principle of theirs, they cannot prove that the world has a beginning, and thus they have no way of knowing the Creator of the world. Consequently, they are like all others who do not know Him (‘Uşuulu-d-Diin, 337-338).” (Ed. That is, they are idolaters.)


    Al-Qurţubiyy (the famous mufassir) said in his book al-Asnaa, p. 193:


    It is a duty for every accountable person to know that Allaah is attributed with absolute greatness [of status], and there is nothing greater than Him [in status]. Further, He is clear of any attribute that is bodily or related to having size, as He cleared Himself of that by His saying:

    الكبير المتعال

    [which may be interpreted to mean : Allaah is the One attributed with absolute greatness and being above non-befitting attributes such as having a shape or size. –Ed.]

    By this He informed us that He is Al-Kabiir, and the definitive particle “Al” indicates absoluteness. Then Allaah said “Al-Mutaˆaal” and by that He declared Himself clear of what makes bodies and bulky things great. [For] who believes that [Allaah has bodily greatness, i.e. in terms of shape or size] is likening Allaah to a body, and is an idolater.


    There is no difference between someone who believes that Aļļaah is a body, and says “but I don’t know how,” and a hindu that only worships one idol that he has not seen yet, and says about it “I don’t know how.” Both are worshiping something physical that they don’t know the shape of, but that has a shape; they are two things of the same kind. Al-Qurtubīy in his commentary in the Qur’ān narrates from his Shaykh Ibn Al-’Arabīy, the famous ĥadiitħ scholar of Andalus, regarding those who say Allāh has a body: “The sound verdict is that they are blasphemers, because there is no difference between them and those that worship idols and pictures. ” (4/14).

    Note that the meaning of “body” or “jism” in Arabic is something with size.
  10. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Any help here?
  11. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    I learnt Tajweed but my understanding of Arabic texts is not great to be honest. I'd understand like 50%.
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    can you read arabic?
  13. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    The way the Habashis make takfir of others, especially other Sunni Muslims, is scary.
    So I feel that I need to learn Daruriyat e Deen again just to be safe.
    My main questions are

    1. If a Mutazali denies that we will see Allah with our eyes in the Hereafter, does he blaspheme?
    2. Is the denier of the torture of the grave deviant or a kafir?
    3. Did the ulama make takfir of Abu Ali Jubbai? Because he believed Allah was obligated to do what is best for the creation (this is what I was taught)
    4. If someone says "Allah is a body not like other bodies", do they blaspheme?
    5. Did the ulama make takfir of Albani, Ibn Baaz, Ibn Uthaymeen?

    I feel I have been mislead so I would greatly appreciate if someone could answer those questions for me.

    Jazak Allah
  14. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    No, I was taught those texts by people who were Habashi. So I feel like I need to re-learn.
    Just for the peace of my own mind. So I can better safeguard my Iman.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  15. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Read books of sunni ulama, especially of our early scholars; good if you can read arabic, otherwise there are plenty of urdu translations of many classical works. if you like reading on tab/computer then download some nice books from marfat library, archive/tariq mahmud lahri, nafseislam, maktabah etc.

    if you have not already then why not read mir'aat al manaji'h sharh mishkat al masabih, an excellent source to learn aqdiah, fiqh, and tasawwuf, and about deviant sects like mu'tazilah too. it is a great source to know the adillah of hanafi fiqh from ahadith sharifah.

    can be downloaded from here, another version here, and another here
    Nabeela likes this.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why? are you considering becoming a mutazili? al-iyadhu billah.

    if you are not an aalim, it is not your business, nor advisable for you to learn about them. if you are an aalim, you know where to look for them.

    common people should read taHawiyyah, and kharidah al-bahiyyah, bad' al-amali, and jawharah etc. which are sunni aqidah texts.
    Aqdas and Noori like this.
  17. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    As salamu alaikum,
    Please could the ulama or learned students on here compile a list of Mutazali beliefs.

    I am a bit confused as to which ones constitue kufr and which ones are deviant but not kufr.


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