Nasiha to Barelwis

Discussion in 'Multimedia' started by Abdullah Ahmed, Sep 4, 2022.

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  1. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    Yeah, I also didn't agree with that and don't think it necessarily made sense.

    I also think one problem is that shaykh asrar doesn't identify as barelwi. What I mean by that is, if some sufi shaykh criticised sufis but openly professed to be sufi himself... The context would be clearer i.e he's not talking about all sufis, just the dodgy ones.

    If an openly barelwi shaykh criticised barelwis, I think people would also understand it in the same light.

    Shaykh asrar openly says he is Not barelwi. As a result, when he criticises barelwis, it APPEARS as if he's criticising the entire manhaj even if he isn't.

    It's kind of like when we say 'the sunnis have such and such a problem'. We're not criticising true sunnis neither are we criticising the manhaj. When people say such a thing, it is clear what we actually mean. But that's because we openly profess to be sunni (or at least we hope it will be accepted from us). We're saying it as insiders. Whereas shaykh asrars criticism is coming from an outsider (as he says he's not barelwi).
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  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    even then, the talk on istighatha and tawassul was unsubstantiated, just as the talk on graves was. it can be easily misconstrued by any non-desi Sunni as anti-Sufi talk (the real, Ash3ari ones). wahabis too don't deny the hadith of the blind man, they just say the command is restricted to the blind man himself for then and there (taqayyud) and not mutlaqan to every ummati

    i see your point though, as in his Q&A thread, he did allude to "real 'Barelwism'" (post # 31)

    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
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  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    who me? i'm not on the side of the speech. i started with wanting/wishing clarifications on application of the hadith of blind man, and aadaab of tawassul and istighatha that he alluded to.

    i was just thinking loudly (post # 8), coz to me this seemed like a one-off over the top speech by Shaykh Asrar. (i may be wrong coz i don't routinely follow everyone's every speech)

    i'm not from an 3ilmi family like some of the people on this forum, just average middle class common folks (deen-wise and duniya-wise), but fwiw, from my 6 immediate parents and grand-parents (ammi-abba, nani-nana, dadi-dada), 3 were born and raised in Bareilly (Ala Hazrat's Bareilly, not Raebareilly, and maternal side are mohajirs into karachi much after partition), and 5 are/were murids of Sayyidi Mufti Aazam Hind rahimahullah. i just have my own idea of maslaha/mafsada on the usage of the eponym Barelwi. i can't use the demonym Barelwi as i'm not born and raised or living in Bareilly
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
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  4. Khanah

    Khanah Veteran

    I always believed that when shaykh talks about barelwis in that context, he is talking about those claiming to be barelwis but are essentially fake jahils.

    In the same way, haven't other ulema criticised sufis despite being sufi themselves? The context being that they're criticising dodgy claimants to sufism rather than the real deal. Didn't ibn jawzi and others criticise 'the sufis' in broad terms despite being sufi themselves i.e they weren't criticising the real sufis.

    Shaykh asrar actually does the same thing somewhere in this overall lecture i.e makes some broad complaint about 'the sufis' without specifying that he's talking about the dodgy ones. I therefore, from the context, understood his complaints about the barelwis to be made in the same manner. That's just how I saw it

    I do understand the frustrations of others though. We get enough stick from wahabi deobandi etc where they make the same false allegations against us as presented in this video and we're always fighting them off on the defensive, explaining this is not actually our maslak. Even though I believe shaykh asrar is using the term as per the above, it doesn't help us at all. Just makes barelwism more of a pejorative as opposed to what he could have done i.e distinguish, elaborate and explain what a real barelwi is as opposed to ascribing chuff chuff to us.
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so it is sh.asrar's responsibility to clarify.

    i will show you who baraylwis are. in sha'Allah, you just wait.
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  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i'm wondering from husn az-zann pov if the Barelwi eponym is lavishly abused by bogus peers and cults in the uk, perhaps to the extent of tawatur amongst them (the bogus lot), in which case that should have been specified.
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mood: disappointed.
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    perhaps the shaykh didn't get the time to visit the various graveyards in damascus or the various maqams in syria which are all high enough. the names of shaykh nuruddin itr and others that he takes with such respect - none of them felt the need to level the graves of imam nawawi and others.

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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why doesn't sh. asrar declare himself an apologist of albani and bin bozo if he is so bedazzled by them? so when is he coming out open to declare that he is a salafi? looks like shaykh sahib has got himself all confused and began speaking in the language of taqwiyatu'l iman.

    he is playing fast and loose with words. am sorry to note that it is one of the most incoherent speech i have heard. he makes wild allegations and generalisations unbecoming of a scholar. who are these people that commit these bid'ahs? and why does he so generously brand them baraylwis?

    it is sad to note that shaykh asrar forcibly tries to impose his categorisation of everyone as asharis, because in his definition he can include everyone as an ash'ari - but if we say that baraylwi is a label that defines sunnis in our time, he grabs his thobe and tiptoes to the corner as if the desi label would sully his expensive moroccan thobe. it is ok if you do not want to be identified as a baraylawi - but do not label every evil in your eyes as belonging to baraylawis, just because you have an axe to grind with some baraylawis. forgive us mawlana, but one ought to be just.

    what gives sh. asrar the right to put those bidyis in the category of baraylawis? why doesn't he ever recall any sunni aalim from the subcontinent, for scholarship? perhaps he doesn't read urdu books or is not aware of sunni ulama from the third world. fair enough. but should he look down upon sunni ulama from the subcontinent?

    he is unjust and casually indulges in iftiraa against the ahl al-sunnah.

    in the talk he even blamed the scholar whom albani cross questioned and he didn't give him the hadith as 'baraylawi' and if i remember well, he said: 'there are baraylwis in every country' and he meant it as a pejorative. is this the way of a scholar? may Allah guide him. it is clear that he has an agenda against baraylawis, and i won't be surprised if he comes out attacking alahazrat even.

    sadly, this is the modus operandi of many british ulama (the same way asrar sahib generalises the pakistani-indian sunnis; same coin) - they use the name of alahazrat to come up and then try to undermine the maslak and act as if they are somehow superior to desi ulama. and he doesn't even understand the position of nablusi in his khulasah al-tahqiq and did a selective reading to suit his agenda of promoting the new madh'hab-e-cocktail!

    true, there are bid'ahs rife in the society. but it is not the fault of sunni scholars. one does not attribute the erroneous ways of the awaam and allege that the scholars are responsible for this.

    and let this be known once again: it is ONLY the scholars claiming relation to alahazrat who have the courage to call out anyone, INCLUDING our own. shaykh asrar's accusation is utterly false that we do not refute our own. if there is one maslak which stands for principle and is willing to let go of ANYONE - it is those with the barakah of alahazrat. there are no sacred cows.

    allamah abdul hakim sharaf qadiri was a proud baraylawi aalim and he called out these bid'ahs long ago.


    read his excellent book: khuda ko yad kar pyare. and oh yes, he was a barelwi aalim.

    all that shykh asrar says - i have heard it from my own teacher and i have myself been telling fellow-sunnis for decades. it is true that the awam is ignorant and they need to be taught. but asrar sahib wants to add every negative aspect to the account of barelwis.

    this is unfair and if sh.asrar continues to throw 'baraylwis' under the bus, we also know how to count, and we too can take out time to analyse his speeches.

    the amount of work done by sunnis - aka baraylwis - is immense. unfortunately, they are not well known because of the constraints we work in and the lack of support from the awaam. rich people throw money on naat khwans - and poor ulama struggling to spread the true teachings of ahl al-sunnah struggle to survive. but our mawlana will be quick to label the FORMER ones as baraylwis, and call the LATTER ones as plain sunni ulama.

    wah! how convenient. but baraylwis are here to stay.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
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  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    responsible people close to the person who claims to inherit the relics can investigate the authenticity. sorry couldn't correct sentence.
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    dunno if i didn't get it properly - but in regards to the hadith of the blind man - i know for a fact even many Arab shuyukh prescribe that as Salatul Hajat for a need.

    perhaps he should clarify his thoughts on when and how we can act on the hadith of the blind man.

    i understand his point about learning proper aadaab for dua and addressing Allah, but if he brings up tawassul and istighatha, he should mention their proper aadaab too, just as he touched upon the primary shart for tabarruk.

    speaking of tabarruk, at least for Prophetic relics, Kaukab Noorani sahab once said in a gathering i was present in, that when the Blessed Hair of the Prophet 3alaihis salam is presented, no one should think to himself if this is authentic or not. i asked the brother next to me why so as authenticity is important for us, and the brother replied that because it is attributed to the Prophet 3alaihis salam, your job is to now respect it as you have no way to ascertain the authenticity, and it's better to err on the side of respect and caution. i understand saying that to a congregation of people.

    but maybe those close to the person who claims to inherit the relic can be investigated by responsible people, as per Shaykh @Asrar Rashid video?

    yes the title too is incorrect in my opinion. in india,the devbandis and wahabis call all these bogus people as Barelwis, and it actually makes our job tough when we have to clarify that those things are detested by us too. for example, qawaalis or women going to dargahs is not something promoted by any self-respecting Ridawi.

    i personally see zero spiritual or worldly value (and now detest personally due to sadd e zarae3) in this business of chadars at mazars, especially now that hindus too have developed a penchant for it and the hindu-muslim bhai-bhai mob of bollywood fans has this reciprocity mantra of them visiting our dargahs (itself a crime) and zanadiqah honoring hindu artefacts. in Turkey or Morocco for example, graves of pious might have one sheet placed on it permanently by the caretakers for identification or covering purposes, but not the way desis do it as offerings. Barelwi and Ridawi ulama should be the first people to speak against this madness rather than the standard line of "but it's mibah and we won't take this right away from people". i feel the hindutvawadis are a lesser evil than this liberal hindu-muslim bhai-bhai evil, the former is an open enemy only after life and property, the latter is much more sneaky and attacks iman

    nonetheless, in my estimation it's wrong to use that title for the video; despite the fact that i do agree that Ahlus Sunnah is a broad term and Barelwis are only a subset of it and that in general the appellation is more counter productive for desi Sunnis than beneficial, although the deciding factor to use or not use it is the circumstance and context.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
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  12. Ibrahim

    Ibrahim New Member

    "Shaykh Asrar was wrong for using the epithet 'Barelwi' here because real Barelwis do not associate themselves with the people mentioned in the video and definitely don't circumabulate graves. In fact 'Barelwi' scholars have refuted the innovations that are widespread..."
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  13. Mehmet Sekil

    Mehmet Sekil Active Member

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