pirs living a good life

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by AbdalQadir, Jul 29, 2021.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i don't know the details, but in principle agree with the sentiments expressed in that Urdu piece

    public figures (Muslim) meeting yogi or modi or anyone is not a bad thing in itself IF there is transparency on who they're meeting and what issues of public (Muslim) interest they're discussing, but secretive meetings will certainly raise eyebrows

    no peer or mawlana is above public accountability!

  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    astaghfirullah for my intended/unintended insinuation and cheap shot.

    not to justify myself, but i just wanna make some things clear

    i mixed up my thoughts. talking generally about peeri industry and then mentioning the specific person of Irfan Shah.

    funnily enough, i have heard such anecdotes of zakat fraud and such things by people i trust, even about people who haven't yet compromised on Sunni 3aqaid, including in this case. hence in my train of thoughts i said i wouldn't be surprised if such a thing comes to surface for...

    the reality is i wouldn't be surprised if such a thing came to surface about any, literally any [big name daamat barakaatuhumul 3aliya of our times]. of course, there are sincere shuyukh too, but they're not directly involved in the peeri glamour industry.

    you're right. let's stick to the things we do have proof for - Irfan Shah and his cohorts committed serious zulm against Jalali; and they muddied the waters on an important distinguishing 3aqidah between Sunnis and shias and therefore greatly hurt the Ahlus Sunnah

    just because they did that, it in no way means we insinuate towards other crimes.

    i'm not suggesting we're imams of jarh and ta3deel here doing a service to deen, but the corruption in the peeri-mureedi institution does concern us by affecting Sunniyat both at an ideological and a grassroots level. this critical comment by Noori does hold a lot of value:

    where are the rallies and gaalis and conferences against the shia lady that started this mess?

    we're certainly not concerned with people's personal lives but what if their public actions hint towards the corruption in their peer status as well as shows clear implications for Ahlus Sunnah?

    Allah knows best

    brother, with the greatest respect, let's organize our thoughts here

    1. staying within the confines of the Shari3ah - no buhtan, no unsubstantiated claims, no insinuations

    2. being practical - we all know (in a general sense) peeri mureedi is an extremely corrupt institution right now, just like the police, politics, and courts. there are conspiracies/attacks on Sunnis/Sunniyat for all sorts of reasons - personal jealousy & vendettas, govt stooges bought out by western powers, rawafid, wahabis, qadiani sympathisers, etc., peers themselves bought out by non-Sunni forces, and so on

    3. husne zann - thinking as best as we can about someone

    4. foolishness - going beyond husne zann

    brother, you can't 'rope in' a 60 or 70-something purportedly Sunni peer to go back on Sunni manhaj. you can perhaps make some sort of a scene or situation or lies to rope a person in to fight with his friend. you can't possibly rope him into not acknowledging his own father's name. the basic 3aqidah of Ahlus Sunnah is just like remembering our own fathers' names. Munawwar Shah can cause Irfan Shah to turn anti-Jalali. he can't rope him in to muddy up basic Sunni 3aqidah re ma3soom and mahfooz.

    plus what about Irfan Shah's over-dramatic language of 'keecharh uchaalna'? what's he trying to prove by doing that?


    on the being practical part - it may be an idea to regulate and standardize peeri mureedi in some way - some sort of an ISO type of certification and Sunni peer quality standards relevant to our times - financial audits of their organizations, khanqahs, deeni courses certification exams for their awami mureeds (what have they taught their common-folk mureeds) and stuff like that


    another thing, why should peers bear the brunt of the criticism. what are the reputable muftis and darul ifta's doing about it - Amjadiya, Naeemiya, Ridawiyya and so on.

    what stops them from at least clarifying the position in writing? is it really that big a masala?
  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Yeah I agree, no need to comment on personal issues.
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In that case, I stand corrected. Let him stand on the Day for his deeds.

    But buhtaan against him for other unsubstantiated crimes/faults is best avoided.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  6. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

  7. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @sherkhan: Shah sahib might not have organised the arrest of Jalali sahib but they certainly endorsed it and called for it. The proof was an appeal from the Markazi Jammat e Ahle Sunnat which was published on Shah Sahib's page where the arrest of 'gustakh of Zahra Paak' and 'Siddique e Akbar' was explicitly called for.
    Even in the video that @AbdalQadir shared, Shah Sahib again exhorts the government to take strong action against 'Dajalli'. I think this is ample evidence of Shah Sahib's involvement
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    As aH has pointed, it is very cheap of you to insinuate. Any criticism should be limited to Sayyid Irfan Shah's choice of language and poor judgement.

    I doubt if Sayyid Irfan Shah has any hand in Dr Jalali's arrest. Yes, he is guilty of pronouncing the fatwa of kufr; but beyond that he is not as influential as you may think.

    Get your facts right. Shias filed the case against Dr Jalali. Pir Munawwar Jamaati organised the hatchet job and roped in Irfan Shah to front it. Establishment took care of the rest. Were these "sunni" hatchet men in cahoots with shias? May be, some of them (like Hanif Quraishi etc.) were; but there is no concrete evidence yet that there were secret parleys between shias and anti-Jalali camp.
  9. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    It wasn't intended to be below the belt, just a observation. Wasn't lashing out either, i just think over glorification, dishing out grand titles and access to gullible Sunnis who will shower them in notes and praise no matter what the individual is spouting off is partly to blame for much of this ego trip agenda driven madness we're currently seeing [this goes for any spreaker]

    I've always respected him for being a Sunni Alim who defends the way of Ahle Sunnah. But recently I think he's going in completely the other direction. He's using his connections and sway over people/mureeds to unjustly vilify jalali sahib who was one of the few I've noticed who kept some form of cheks and balance in Pakistan amongst the molvi and pir fraternity.

    Point noted about gheebat, JazakAllah khair for the reminder.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    folks, be upright and just. what you are doing is unjust, unfair even if you convince yourselves that all is fair in service of deen.

    insinuation is haram. either you know or you don't. if you do, give proof. if you don't, do not insinuate.

    do not get into things that concern you not.

    none of our business.

    if someone asked you what gheebat was - this is a clear cut example. is he spending those pounds from your money?

    this is so below the belt. everyone takes from their share apportioned to them by Providence. merely because some people have a good life, and others sweat it out is no reason to lash out on those who live comfortably well so long as they do not oppress others or make their fortune by exploiting others or any other impermissible means.

    one of my relatives is a rich man. he made a fortune by slogging in the middle east for years. unlike people who buy expensive cars and live with families, he made a choice to live in a small room and keep his family back home. he was an honest and upright person, who was regular in prayers, paid zakat on time, etc. now everyone used to talk about him, and how he doesn't spend money though he had a good salary. time flew and he invested money in real estate etc. and he built a comfortable house and bought a big car. he is now retired, lives a peaceful life - and serves the community in his own way by sponsoring half a dozen muslim students by paying their fees and expenses through 4 years of college (some are engineering students). people STILL talk about him. they say: he is stingy. he doesn't throw parties. he wears cheap clothes. now he is showing off with such a big car. what is the need of such a big house? etc. etc.

    the beauty of a man's islam is that he does not bother with things that do not concern him.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  11. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    I wonder how many sincere Sunnis have broken their pledge of allegiance with himo_O
    He's definitely no Murshid anymore since his own carage is steaming ahead on the wrong tracks, what hope is there for anyone who is stupid enough to continue following him in his madness:confused:
  12. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    He's lost the plot, Pir Mahroof Sahib of Bradford was asked about him recently by someone and the response was that basically in the past he was right with us and upon the Haq but now he's become a renegade who won't listen to sense and we have nothing to do with him.
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Oh yeah. Peeri is the best business. But you gotta work hard too. You need to sit at the back of a truck and scream on a microphone for hours.

    Those fat envelopes are a given, regardless if peers adhere to Sünni manhaj or not. The least we expect from these people is not to be cheated on the manhaj.

    I'm not accusing but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone told me Irfan shah even usurps people's zakat and Qurbani money.

    The chandas/donations are murky territory anyway. Donations for their mosques cum khanqahs cum madrasas cum homes cum dargahs. I remember he shed crocodile tears in that sabri interview 'what do Sayyids ever ask you people' or something like that.

    Of course, there are Sayyids with a capital S bookman old style and there are sayyids with a small s times new roman. There's a difference between the two.
    Brother Barry likes this.
  14. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    Makes sense, he's lived a lavish life here in the UK for decades getting tax free envelopes of cash. One guy who works at a butcher shop he uses mentioned that he spends a few hundred pounds a week just on meat and paay, most average people just about earn that amount a week after taxes. If he's got immigration issues getting back to the kushy life here then I wouldn't rule him out of doing anything to get back to it.
  15. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I've heard the Pirs of Eidgah Sharif are influential with regards to visas. Qari Zawadar mentioned the Home Office issues and that there have been allegations from the mureeds re. Syed Munawwar Jammati. However, as both as things stand are related to personal issues, it's probably not right to speculate whether these are linked to the current issue.

    Shah Sahib has harmed his reputation, and needs to comsider whatever agenda he has, is it worth it? Those who go against Sunni principles or manipulate them never regain a strong footing amongst mainstream Sunnis. The two examples of this is Dr Tahir ul Qadri and Pir Abdul Qadir Shah. Both had a strong following amogst mainstream sunnis but now they are on the fringes. In order to claim any sort of legitimacy (following), they have to present the mainstream Sunnis as 'extreme'.
  16. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    it is very much possible that irfan sahab is promoting the agenda of the agencies, jalali sahab not given a bail despite several attempts is a very clear sign of it.
    Ghulam Ali and AbdalQadir like this.
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Sorry. My bad.
    Come to think of it, this could be the reason for his personal vengeance against Jalali. He might have struck a deal with someone to help him with his immigration issues.
  18. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @AbdalQadir: The Home Office comment is in brackets for a reason. Of course Shah Sahib should be boycotted regardless but what was meant here was that in regards to their alleged Home Office issues, their return or stay in the UK is in doubt. Sorry, if that was not clear.
  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Home office can't force you to like him or address him as 'his majesty, emperor of sunnis', or attend events where he's invited.

    when was shame ever a prerequisite for using akabireen's names? devbandis use İmam e Azam's name, wahabis use Al-Asqalani's name, rawafid use Ahle Bayt's names. Irfan himself used names of Sahaba and Ahle Bayt to sell his peeri-mureedi. He looks like a perfect street vendor selling his goods at some roadside auction or something.
  20. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    It's time for the senior scholars in Pakistan to put an end to this charade, every gathering shah Sahib finds it appropriate to just slander and swear at Jalali Sahib. They should also force Shah Sahib to clarify the issues I highlighted in another thread too. Why should Shah Sahib be able to walk around and shout nonsense, when they too have made blunders?

    When Shah Sahib returns to the UK (Home Office issues permitting), he should be boycotted. To even equate the open gustakh ot Sayiduna Abu Bakr with the statement of Jalali sahib is just the height of injustice. The public who listen to this, what can you say, there is a public that laps up the gustakhi of the Sahaba with relish. A sorry state of affairs.

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