Shahid Ali continues public spat with Shaykh Asrar

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Paradise Seeker, Nov 28, 2021.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    A note from another thread, what's interesting is that the very organizations that such individuals laud as being true representatives of the Maslak, are the same organizations that publish documents that highlight Huzūr Tajush Sharīʿah's extremely warm and cordial relationship with the ʿUlamā' of other lands who (in the sample I took) nearly all appeared on video and some of whom did not stop pictures being hung in their midst. The question is that why is there such harshness towards Dawate Islami when they don't even go anywhere near that extent (none of them hang pictures of Mawlanā Ilyās up, at least not in a way that's authorized by DI).

    Do we have one Maslakī standard for Syrian and Egyptian ʿUlamā' and another standard for anyone east of Pakistan and west of Burma?
     
  2. Sunni Jaag

    Sunni Jaag Active Member

  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I would never do that category.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
  4. Sunni Jaag

    Sunni Jaag Active Member

    What category would you put allowing layman to pray behind deviants?
     
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Some points are fair but we must differentiate between actual furū' and agreed upon muharramāt.

    Actual furū'
    Photography
    Videography
    Salah on train
    Salah with microphone
    Alcohol in medicine

    Muharramāt
    Sharing stages with deviants
    Calling for non-refutation of deviants
    Saying devs are Sunni

    Then you have those modern day young British shaykhs who adopt silence on deviants even when asked.

    So watered down and not one of us for furū' is problematic. For muharramāt...

    ---
    As for Shaykh Asrar, he is clear in his position on deviant groups.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
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  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    that is merely the occupational hazard of any public calling - Alahazrat himself had detractors from among the Sunnis.

    Shaykh Asrar should continue to focus on his educational projects and let things shape themselves. He is doing an excellent job and more power to him.

    The thirsty will find the well eventually. in sha'Allah.
     
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    While I appreciate most of what you have said, I am concerned that you might inadvertently trigger a label-war with your generous clubbing of "Barelvi" with these firaq-labels. In the past we have heard of "modern" barailvis of Manchester.

    Is there a place for "good" barailvis as per this scheme of nomenclature? Should we create further labels for these different "stripes" of barailvis?

    Perhpas we should settle for just two labels, brailvi and pseudo-barailvi..

    Wouldn't it be better to say, "I am a true barailvi - prove that I am not".

    Do remember, barailwi is just a synonym for a subcont sunni. This is a historical development which we can't go back and undo, no matter how much anyone may wish it. And to the subcont sunni, it brings a lot of clarity and certainty regarding his aqeeda and Iman and practice - which he should not be deprived of.

    So please take care lest you alienate or offend the Urdu-speaking Sunnis with these labels.

    Allah knows best.
     
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  8. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    MashaAllah. @TheRidawiWay, this sums up the issue really well and the sentiments of most the members on here quite well.

    I messaged one such individual and just said, some people need to come into the real world and not remain in a cartoon one.
     
  9. TheRidawiWay

    TheRidawiWay New Member

    In conclusion, this palaver with Mawlana Shahid Ali highlights a deeper issue. This is the phenomenon of certain groups in our midst developing a Khariji-Wahhabi mentality and displaying their behaviour. Quotations that I will use hereon are mostly from Shaykh Asrar Rashid’s answers on Sunniport.

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid said about these Barelwi-Ahbash types that “They cannot define what is 'sulh-kulli', its qawanin, dawabit and usul. Many of them are ignorant of usul al-takfir.” It is appropriate to add ignorance of Usul al-Tabdi’ and Adab al-Ikhtilaf here as well.

    We see that the Khariji-minded Barelwis are swift to chuck fellow Sunni Muslims and scholars outside of the “Maslak” over which they claim sole monopoly. They alone see themselves as being the arbiters who have the authority to declare people as Sunnis or Non-Sunnis and they dream that they alone are the self-appointed gate-keepers of Ahl al-Sunnah. This has caused “toxicity amongst Muslims” (case-in-point), major disunity, rifts, and is frankly a massive “waste of energy and time” as Shaykh Asrar Rashid has noted.

    Furthermore, they are “incompetent extremists” who tend to view all issues as if they are “black and white.” A characteristic of these Khariji-minded individuals is “infighting over furu’ like over pictures and videos.” Anyone who disagrees with them is considered a Sunni only in the broader sense, but not a true Barelwi or a follower of Maslak-e AlaHazrat/Imam Ahmad Raza Khan in reality.

    A common feature of these individuals is that they will utter harsh statements against someone or behave with them in such a manner that gives the impression that they are declaring them Non-Sunni. They will warn people in their private groups and cultish circles about them. Words and phrases like “He is watered-down”, “not Kattar”, “not proper”, or “not one of us/upon the Maslak” are quite the norm. However, no formal or clear statement is issued in this regard. In fact, they may even explicitly deny that they declare said person as a Non-Sunni.

    Take for instance, labelling Da’wat-e Islami, an international Sunni organisation whose characteristic green turban is emblematically ‘Barelwi’, that has created global networks with Arab and Non-Arab scholars, built thousands of nurseries, educational institutes, revived grassroots da’wah, and publish works etc. as ‘Da’wat-e Ilyasi’ simply because Mawlana Ilyas Attari allows video and photography. Many go as far as to insinuate in their public speeches that he is not a true Wali because he has a security detail. Whether Mawlana Ilyas Attari is a Wali or not, or whether Dawat-e Islami has room for correction is besides the subject of discussion, but the point is regarding snide remarks about fellow Muslims whom they still, (at least, when asked), still nominally consider as Sunni.

    The Khariji-Wahhabi-minded types find it easy to charge someone with something so grave, or make insinuations about them because they are never questioned or asked to substantiate their claims. They thrive off the ambiguity of these charged words because no objective criteria or standard is set by which they can be measured. This is how they often eliminate ‘opposition’ by throwing terms and labels against fellow Sunnis while not substantiating anything.

    It is enough for the damage to be inflicted in the public sphere against said persons like Shaykh Asrar Rashid that unsubstantiated remarks or claims are made about them when this is completely contradictory to Islamic ethics. Unfortunately, the gullible masses lap this up because “it was said” or ‘Shaykh’ X or ‘Mufti’ Y has said so.

    Many will fear even inviting Shaykh Asrar Rashid to their events for an informative speech now because of these ‘rumours’ and murmurings. He has the air of controversy blowing around him. Take a look at Shaykh Asrar’s latest event in Manchester when the host made a similar remark.

    These Machiavellian ploys are advantageous to certain predators because it further reinforces the clique mentality, while their hollow self-prestige and emotionally charged rhetoric soothes group and individual insecurities, reassuring the ilm-deprived masses that they and only they are the “proper,” “Kattar”, “Tan Tana Tan”, “Barelwi” Sunnis in the world.

    The blood of this slander waters the roots of crooked trees.

    How foul will be the nectar of the fruit when it is squeezed?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
  10. TheRidawiWay

    TheRidawiWay New Member

    The Four Videos:

    [1] I have spoken about the irrelevance of the first video in the last post.

    [2] As for the video by Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi, then it is safe to say that it is also irrelevant and can be ignored.

    Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi says that Salah is not permitted behind an Imam who is a Wahhabi-Deobandi. Shaykh Asrar Rashid agrees with this. This is not a point of disagreement as is evidenced by the multiple clarifications of Shaykh Asrar Rashid on Instagram and Sunniport, as well as in the Ummah Channel clip.

    The point of contention which has failed to be addressed by Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi is regarding the ignorant commoner. This was the category and context in which Shaykh Asrar Rashid made his remark. Mawlana Shahid Ali omits vital information again, just as we witnessed in his question to the other Muftis that he queried.

    Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi does not reference Shaykh Asrar Rashid once in his video. He makes a generic statement and makes a vague mention of any ‘Sunni scholar or preacher (‘alim ya muballigh)’.
    • If Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi does indeed consider Shaykh Asrar Rashid to be incorrect and misguided, then surely he would have cleared this in the meeting?
    • If this was not concluded, then why was there an announcement of reconciliation and apology on the behalf of Mawlana Shahid Ali?
    • Even if this was not cleared in the meeting, or for some reason or another Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi saw it fit to release a public correction, then why has he not issued a fatwa on Shaykh Asrar Rashid by name?
    Posters on this forum have commented on the titles given to Mawlana Shahid Ali by Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi. They have taken this lightly, whether rightfully or wrongfully so. What is even more concerning is that these were not titles given to Mawlana Shahid Ali by the lay public or by ignorant fans; if so, the jest may be understood. On the contrary, Mawlana Shahid Ali is an ‘Allamah and Mufti according to his own teacher, who is Ustadh al-Asatidhah himself. Perhaps we are to take his titles seriously after all! However, if we were to judge these scholars by the titles that they themselves laud one another with, then we could truly see the ‘standard’ that is set.

    It seems as if the only erudition Fatih-e Deobandiyyat, ‘Allamah Mufti Mawlana Shahid Ali has learned from the famed Bandyalwi way is the opening few lines of al-Khayrabadi’s Mirqat: Alhamdu lillah al-ladhi abda’a l-aflaka wa l-ardiyn. Wa l-Salatu wa l-salamu ‘ala man kana nabiyyan wa Adamu bayna l-ma’i wa l-tin.

    [3] The third video is a re-upload of a snippet from Mawlana Shahid Ali’s previous video. This will not be addressed again. What is treacherous however, is the sensationalist headline used by Mawlana Shahid Ali.
    • Where did Shaykh Asrar Rashid ‘promote’ praying behind heretics? Can Mawlana Shahid Ali substantiate where Shaykh Asrar Rashid made a normative claim encouraging reading Salah behind Deobandis? Has Shaykh Asrar Rashid not made it abundantly clear that Salah behind an Imam with Bid’ah in belief is Makruh Tahrimi and thus is Wajib al-I’adah in the Hanafi school? Is this considered an encouragement by Mawlana Shahid Ali?
    • Secondly, where did Shaykh Asrar Rashid ‘promote’ ignorance of their beliefs? Can Mawlana Shahid Ali substantiate where Shaykh Asrar Rashid made a normative claim encouraging ignorance of heretical beliefs?
    There is a huge difference between encouraging ignorance, and speaking to an ignorant person. Shaykh Asrar Rashid was speaking about a descriptive case about an ignorant commoner. He was not promoting ignorance itself.

    It is quite ironic that such a sensationalist title is wielded against Shaykh Asrar Rashid when Shaykh Asrar Rashid has been the foremost individual promoting knowledge of correct belief and theology within Sunni circles. To claim he has been promoting ignorance is disingenuity to the utmost degree. Shaykh Asrar Rashid has been promoting knowledge of theology and ‘Ilm al-Kalam consistently for a number of years. In fact, it would not be far-fetched to say that he has single-handedly made the study and awareness of the subject common amongst Sunni circles. His series on ‘The Sanusi Creed’ and ‘The Tahawi Creed’ have views in the tens of thousands. One has only to look at the numerous lectures and videos of Shaykh Asrar Rashid teaching the necessary, impossible and possible attributes of Allah and His prophets at numerous venues, spanning a number of years, during a variety of events (Na’at gatherings, Mawlid, ‘Urs etc.) to come to this conclusion.

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid has spoken against the widespread ignorance among the laity and continues to encourage fostering a ‘reading’ public to this end. The recent ‘Book Club’ initiative in which he reviews suggested readings is one materialisation of this. Shaykh Asrar Rashid is a vocal critic of ignorance, blind-following and dull Sunni discourse (case-in-point). He has represented and promoted Sunni theology both on a public and private level against deviants when nobody else has fulfilled this collective responsibility. Conveniently, the sole representatives of the true Maslak-e AlaHazrat, Barelwi, and Sunni theology retreat into occultation when it is time to display their self-professed prowess and acclaim touted by their foot-soldiers. Shaykh Asrar Rashid recommended Mawlana Shahid Ali to translate Mufti Sharif al-Haqq al-Amjadi’s book on the Sunni-Deobandi dispute, so how does he encourage ignorance of their beliefs?

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid has clarified publicly again that praying Salah behind deviants is not permitted. However, the ruling differs regarding the person according to his or her level of knowledge.

    Shaykh Asrar mentions that there are people who say, “All we know is that we are Barelwi and they are Deobandi. We do not know anything more than this.” As is evident here, Shaykh Asrar Rashid is speaking about the ignorant commoner who only professes ‘knowledge’ superficially.

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid says to this category of people that, “If that is your state of knowledge, then it is incumbent upon you to learn more knowledge.” Shaykh Asrar Rashid is categorically emphasising that such people should learn. Compare this with Mawlana Shahid Ali’s sensationalist title in which he claims that Shaykh Asrar Rashid ‘promotes’ ignorance of belief.

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid continues, “If you believe they are deviant and you know that they are deviant, then you must repeat your prayer.” Here, Shaykh Asrar Rashid is reiterating that Salah should be repeated if one reads their prayer behind a misguided Imam and knows of this.

    The latest clarification Q/A concludes by Shaykh Asrar Rashid saying, “If you say: ‘I do not have knowledge of what a Deobandi is, I do not have knowledge of anything’ then I would first say: ‘When you learn more knowledge, then the answer changes.’”

    [4] The fourth and latest video is another re-upload. I have spoken on the failed testimony provided by Mufti Zahid Hussain al-Ridawi above which has not been addressed to date.

    Mufti Abdun Nabi Hamidi from South Africa congratulated Shaykh Asrar Rashid on his debate with the Christians. He knew that he consumed rat poison and went so far as to meet Shaykh Asrar Rashid and ask about his well-being.



    Mufti Abdun Nabi Hamidi clearly mentions in the following link that rat poison was consumed in the very specific context of a challenge during a debate with vitriolic Christian missionaries. Shaykh Asrar Rashid immediately addresses the audience and says, “The main thing to focus on is the subject matter that was covered in the debate, and the rational and textual proofs of Islam, and for the truth and veracity of Islam. This is essential for people to study worldwide.”
    • Is Shaykh Asrar Rashid promoting himself in this comment? Is he directing people towards the poison spectacle or to the importance of studying theology and correct belief?
    • Who, from Shaykh Asrar Rashid and his detractors, is wasting attention, energy and time on the rat poison issue instead of concerning themselves with more pertinent matters?
    Mufti Abdun Nabi Hamidi remarks that it was a miracle performed by Shaykh Asrar Rashid. This was most likely said in friendly humour and jest. Still, Shaykh Asrar Rashid interjects and says, “I am not claiming any Karamat and people should not focus on that.”

    They say idle hands become the tool of Satan. Scholars are no exemption. It seems as if those from among them who have weak ambition, little to offer of substance, lack skills and contributions to serious scholarship get involved in petty debacles like this and partisanship.

    Mawlana Hussein al-Qadiri tweeted that it seems as if Madina Societies at university campuses have gone quiet lately, and that they are needed across the UK. It may be that Mawlana Hussein al-Qadiri is unaware that there are certain Barelwi Muftis and their followers who are jeopardising the existence of such Sunni-Barelwi societies with their public exhibition of an affair that occurred around two years ago. Perhaps consideration of Maslahah or public welfare went amiss in their supposed world-class training. Or even, just simple tack and wisdom.

    upload_2021-12-12_13-27-2.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
  11. TheRidawiWay

    TheRidawiWay New Member

    Update:

    Since the last few posts, Mawlana Shahid Ali has uploaded four further videos. The first [1] was addressed previously, in which Mawlana Shahid Ali raises a tiff with Bilal Ibn Asif and an anonymous YouTube comment. The second [2] video was an upload of Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi. The third [3] was a re-upload of a snippet from his own video which he titled ‘Asrar Rashid Promotes Praying behind Deobandis & Ignorance of their Beliefs’. The latest and fourth [4] video is another re-upload of a snippet which Mawlana Shahid Ali has titled ‘Refutation of Asrar Rashid: Rat Poison Miracle or Deception’.

    This will possibly be the last post addressed to Mawlana Shahid Ali because he seems to be ‘milking’ this magnesia.

    Note:

    It is quite curious that despite these four further videos, Mawlana Shahid Ali has not even made an attempt to address the questions raised regarding his sources about the rat poison allegation.

    Mufti Zahid Hussain al-Ridawi told Mawlana Shahid Ali that Shaykh Asrar Rashid consumed Milk of Magnesia. Based on this, Mawlana Shahid Ali says that Shaykh Asrar Rashid has engaged in deception and intends to amass a cult following. This requires a public repentance, Mawlana Shahid Ali claims. Yet, when the source provided by Mufti Zahid Hussain al-Ridawi and Hafiz Shakeel was contacted in the supervised meeting with Mawlana Naveed Jameel and Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi, he denied stating anything of the sort whatsoever. Hmm.
     
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  12. Ali Has

    Ali Has New Member

    With a view to putting this topic to bed, I urge all intersted to view and listen to the full show:


    I do not think Shaykh Asrar was promoting praying salah behind Devbandis - especially when the show is viewed in full.

    It should also be noted that Shaykh was cut short when answering this question for an Azan break and when the show resumes it begins with a new question/topic.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    "promotes"
    where?
     
  14. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    That video is just a clip from his earlier longer video which we have already discussed. He's trying to milk it as much as possible. Like bro, even if you think he's wrong, just get over it - there's only so many times you can keep going back to this particular well
     
  15. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Did not watch it as the title itself is sufficient to know that imam Shahid is not representing Shaykh Asrar's view accurately. Don't entertain this sideshow any longer.
     
  16. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

     
  17. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Maulana Shahid is to release another video......
     
  18. Sunnisoldier

    Sunnisoldier Active Member

    He said Aslam Abu Damdam Teddy bear was unworthy of being an Imam for dressing like a Teddy bear and teaching kids.

    Now this video.

    Mufti sb doesn't seem to like the newer generation. Lol
     
  19. Khanah

    Khanah Well-Known Member

    Having listened to the question posed to the muftis again, I can see why they gave the answer they did about fictional Zayd.

    Had fictional Zayd stated 'the prayer behind the deviant is valid according to x school of thought', maybe they wouldn't have called him a sulh kulli.

    However, in the question posed by shahid, fictional Zayd claims that 'people are not obligated to know the differences between sunni's and non sunni's in any way' or something to that effect- which probably no school of thought says. If a shafi scholar (or otherwise) believes that a prayer behind the deviant is valid, I'm sure they would not claim that knowing the differences between sunni and non sunni is not important.

    As a result, I retract from parts of my earlier posts with respect to the answers given by the esteemed muftis.

    As for shahid, the way he poses his question is negligent/incompetent at the very least. Deceptive at worst. I'll try to hold husn al dhann towards incompetence.

    As for the question of how the jahil can find who is truthful and who is not- do the Ashari's not say that taqleed in aqeedah is impermissible? Therefore, to some level, the onus of investigating the truth is upon the individual and the individual must then arrive at the correct conclusion through rational evidences. Meaning that the jahil has the obligation of not being a jahil, to a certain degree. This is the first obligation and the other obligations follow from this.

    For example:

    A is a Sunni scholar.
    B is a deobandi.
    C is a wahabi.
    D is a shia.

    Zayd the layman has the obligation of coming to the conclusion that sunni Islam is the truth whether he starts his journey as a believer or disbeliever, through the rational evidences.

    Once he comes to this conclusion, he then uses this as a criterion to judge A, B, C and D. He then concludes A is on the correct manhaj, disregards B, C and D and holds firmly to A in order to learn the remaining obligations.
     
  20. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    More clearly: A and B both claim to be Hanafi Maturidi Chisti Barelvi Aalims. One of the two is actually not an aalim but in fact a rafidi sajjada nasheen who is a jaahil.

    How does X who is a jahil layperson determine who is true to their claim and subsequently approach the *correct* person to escape jahalat by learning.
     

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