Shaykh Gibril: Umar's Marriage with Umm Kulthum

Discussion in 'Tarikh' started by sunnistudent, Nov 28, 2011.

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  1. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Let's say Umm Kulthum rd didn't marry any of the sonS of Jafar rd. Please tell me how does it prove that she was not married to Umar rd?

    Gentle reminder: Imam Rabbani Ahmed Sirhindi's rh reference.
  2. yes, stay here. answer those questions. in order of appearance in the text of tabaqat, the earliest source.

    let me refresh your memory and break it down again in parts so you atleast understand, what I am asking. here is the first thing Ibn Sa'd (d. 230) says:
    Meaning of the passage: in the above, the very first paragraph about it says that umm kulthum married Umar ibn khattab whilst she had not reached the age of puberty, in other words, she was a little girl. and had two children from her, namely, zayd and ruqayya. after Umar's was killed she was married to aun ibn jafar, after his death, she married muhammed ibn jafar and after his death she was married to abdullah ibn jafar after the death of her sister Zaynab (who was present at Karbala!)...
    [/FONT]QUESTION ONE: Ibn Sa'd the earliest source about janab e seyyeda states that after UMAR ibn khattab, she was married to AUN ibn Jafar and then Muhaamed ibn jafar then abdullah ibn jafar.
    here we have FOUR marriages of the seyyeda.
    just look at the two that married after hazrat Umar. AUN and Mohammed. the two brothers and sons of Jafar al-tayyar.
    how is that possible. both aun and mohammed died in the life time of hazrat umar in the battle of tustar. how can they have been married to seyyeda during the time when she was also supposed to have been married to hazrat Umar? both died before hazrat umar.
    you can see that in al-istian, usud al-ghaba, al-isaba, etc. that both died in the battle of tustar in the khilafat of hazrat umar. let me just give you one reference for that. here is al-isaba about aun ibn jafar:

    استشهد عون بن جعفر في تستر وذلك في خلافة عمر وما له عقب

    Aun ibn jafar was martyred in the battle of tustar in the caliphate of umar.

    so now i have made it really simple for you to comprehend. this was the question one, exactly in the order of appearance in tabaqat of ibn sa'd.
    the point is that here we have TWO extra marriages attributed to janab e seyyeda.

    once you reply to this then inshAllah,we will move onto the next question exactly as it appears in the tabaqat. bit by bit, we will unravel the discrepancies about the phantom marriages. I cannot make any clearer than that. please, please stay here and lets deal with everything, one by one.
  3. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    The more ghulam a ghaus sahab writes, the more we come to know about his methodology. Brothers can see how he leaves the main topic and starts concentrating on other things.

    Here are the recent comments of ghulam e ghaus sahab

    Regarding Imam Ahmed Sirhindi (Rh)
    The reference is still pending.

    Regarding the topic being discussed

    Asking questions will not make the hadith weak or the narration invalid.When hadith from Sahih Bukhari can raise the 'BP' of some people , then it is not shocking to just raise a question.

    Both the questions were answered, only if you would have read the "framed questions". It has answered the claim of umm kulthum (rd) being present at the karbala and her fourth marriage.

    This is another statement which you need to prove. Please do not make it a case like the quote from Imam Ahmed Sirhindi (rh)

    If the habit of mere making statements with no reference is started then people will stop getting benefited and no one will read posts.

    I can also act like you and say

    [FONT=&quot]this is not Umm Kulthum Bint Ali which was married to Umar (Rd). Umm Kulthum Bint Ali which was married to Umar (rd) was the daughter of Fatimah (rd) , while this Umm Kulthum Bint Ali is the daughter of Umm Saad Bint Urwa Ibn Masud Al-Thaqafiyya. She is referred to as the Umm Kulthum Al-Sughra (junior) to distinguish her from her sister who was referred to as Umm Kulthum Al-Kubra (rd).

    And when people ask me for reference, I can vanish!

    Ghulam e ghaus, what I have observed from your posting style is that :
    1) You avoid the main topic
    2) you make quote but give no reference
    3) you raise questions, which will divert attention from the main topic
    4) You do no follow any principle in declaring a hadith to be sahih or daif ( Principle set by the scholars , not people of the present time, who are shy to declare their sanad)

    Till now I have given only one hadith to prove the marriage . The report from Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd clearly states that the marriage took place.

    40,000 dirham or wearing patched clothe can not make this hadith weak. I am sure you know this fact.

    Till now, you have not given any ruling from any established Imam of the Hadith who has declared the sanad to be weak.

  4. brother abdalqadir, it is very easy to call names. i could equally deduce from your defence of marwan that you are a marwani. there are reporters in bukhari that wrote poems in praise of the person that killed Imam Ali. just being a reporter is not enough, brother.

    brother AH, i knew that was coming. whenever you do not have an answer then you bring up 'agenda' 'red herring' any excuse you could find. if that DATA sahib reference made you angry then it is not my fault. the brother gave Data sb as reference and i merely asked fine, here is Data sahib in the same book.

    the point is that I do not believe that hazrat Umar got married to janab e Seyyeda umm kulthum bint Fatima al-zahra(s). in this regard, i presented my questions on the first source on this matter: tabqat ibn sa'd. asked you soem question in an order from begining to end. from different marriage claims, to revival sunnat e jahliyya and that there are two umm kulthum's. one whose janaza was read before karbala and the one who was present at karbala.
    to latter, we can reconcile. that umm kulthum who married hazrat Umar was actually the daughter of hazrat abu bakr. muhammad ibn abu bakr and umm kulthum bint abu bakr were raised by Imam Ali. so hence two umm kulthums were attributed to Imam Ali. one being the daughter of abu bakr and the other daughter of ali. one dies before karbala and the other died after karbala.

    that was just for the general reader. my questions about tabaqat of ibn sa'd have been clearly and directly asked. just follow as they are presented and one by one we can ascertain the reality of those reports.
    about 40,000 dirham. the other brother translated that so i said here have hazrat umar who does not have or love money yet in the times when zakat was wajib at 200 dirham, he giving 40,000 and whats more he patch upon patch upon on his single peice of clothing.

    i know, you are itching to ban me and looking for face-saving and devising all kinds of tactics. why is it that when it comes other pending questions and claims that you have made and have been unable to justify and say that i dont have time yet here and elsewhere you seem to find time. shouldnt you just allow me on that one thread where claimed about kufr. why here? because that is your method, when you cant answer then there is no time but otherwise you all the time in the world.
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    that's why i keep calling him a cyberpunk.

    just as he inferred a handshaking with women implication from Ala Hazrat's fatwa, i deduced the following from gg's quoted Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlwi's fatwa (rahimahumullah):

    if he (gg) firmly believes that calling a deceased narrator of hadith "mal3oon" is cool, then calling someone who is not a narrator of hadith, is rude and ignorant, and causes fitnah - a "punk" - is certainly fully compliant to the bounds of adab and proper demeanor, plus "punk" is much much lighter in magnitude than "mal3oon".

    so this is my personal deduction from Shah Abdul Aziz sahab's fatwa to myself - gg is a cyberpunk!

    i don't expect anyone to agree with me in applying gg's own methodology on his own self.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    enough is enough.

    brothers, do not be deceived into engaging with such people unless they make their position clear.

    ironically, gg was mentioning red herrings.

    unlike you, who are straightforward and sincere, these guys simply want to confuse you. even when their ignorance is paraded, they still have the modesty to crop up and keep working their petty fitna.

    engage with them, if you will: but only on an agenda.

    henceforth, gg will be restricted to these three or four threads and will be able to participate in future threads only after closing these ones. any new topic started by gg will be deleted.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011

  7. in the same book kashf al-mahjub Data sahib says about a BADRI sahabi, the best over all other sahaba:

    the farsi words are 'man ba dil uoo ra dost na daaram'. though Huzur Paak(s) forgave him, lashed and he had made tauba and he was badri sahaba yet Data sahib(r) says I do not love him from my heart. whereas, when someone who became a sahabi in the last six months or so, he then fought with Hazrat Ali, for example, then if someone says exactly the same as Data sahib that 'i do not love him from the heart' because he fought Imam Ali. would accpet that? i'm sure you will not. so what happened tp DATA sahib now?
    you may check that reference in tazkira of ashab e suffa. though urud translators have doctored it but it is still there in farsi and english translators have kept it
  8. it is clear that you do not have an answer to those specific questions from the earliest source tabaqat ibn sa'd. all the rest is a smokecreen.
  9. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I did not "frame " a question.

    I asked on what you posted. Please see , this is what you posted.

    I only requested you to explain that"sonS' in plural.

    As a side note, a famous shia website raised the same objections , many years back.Alhamdulillah, all the objections were answered,

    Check this [ From a shia website]



  10. calltoallah

    calltoallah Active Member

    Interestingly, Data Ganj Bakhsh Ali al-Hujweri (Qaddas Allahu sirrahu) states in his kashf al-Mahjub that Sayyiduna Umar did marry Sayyida Umm Kulthum.

    That does it for me; I don't know about you gg
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i don't know if it is deliberate, but this is why i do not wish to answer unless they declare their agenda.

    see? tease and wait. if someone answers, then jump to the other side: 'it is not my opinion.'

    therefore, no one should answer unless the agenda is made clear.
  12. i'm only here for a flash to tell you that you are framing your own questions and replying to them. they are not my questions. how can one argue with you when you do not even understand the questions.
  13. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Please note " sons" in plural.
    Did Ali rd, promise to marry / betroth his daughter to more than one son of Jafar rd? ( how else will you explain that "sonS")

    Did Ali rd give promise to Jafar rd or his sons about this marriage? Was the proposal already made or engagement was already over? Was umm Kulthum rd engaged to more than one son of Jafar rd at the same time?? Or was it just the plan/ intention of Ali rd?

    And why did Ali rd agree to marry his daughter to Umar rd, after Umar rd made that request?


    Ghulam a ghaus sahab, there are so many ahadith and narration ( with sahih chain) that this historical marriage can not and has not been denied by sunni scholars. I am sure, you would have checked those references. My motive in this thread is to engage you in an academic discussion so that I can know on which criteria do you accept or reject something.
  14. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Narrated Tha'laba bin Abi Malik: 'Umar bin Al-Khattab distributed some garments amongst the women of Medina. One good garment remained, and one of those present with him said, "O chief of the believers! Give this garment to your wife, the (grand) daughter of Allah's Apostle." They meant Um Kulthum, the daughter of 'Ali. 'Umar said, Um Salit has more right (to have it)." Um Salit was amongst those Ansari women who had given the pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle.' 'Umar said, "She (i.e. Um Salit) used to carry the water skins for us on the day of Uhud."

    [Sahih Bukhari, English Translation ,Volume 4, Book 52, Number 132]

    Some people raised doubt concerning this translation

    1) The Arabic text does not contain "daughter of Ali" [ Bint Ali]

    This is an accusation, because the Arabic text does contain "bint ali"

    2) The Arabic word" indaka" in the arabic Text,has many meanings like: wife, close, next to , near etc . But here we MUST not take WIFE

    This inference is also wrong . Here "indaka" will be taken as wife.

    Side note: The umm kulthum rd being discussed is the daughter of Sayyeda Fatima (rd) and Sayyedina Ali rd.
  15. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    welcome back.
    None of these prove that marriage never took place or that the hadith is daif.

    I have read you previous post from Ibn Sa'd. The objection has been answered if you would have read the link. Even that objection does not prove that the hadith is weak or the marriage never took place. In fact it clearly states that marriage took place.

    Insha Allah , all your objections will be answered point by point.

    In case you will return after a few days, then please don't forget to get the reference of that quote from Imam Rabbani Ahmed Sirhindi (rh)

    For those interested

    It is the official stand of pir abdul qadir sahab [ of UK] and his students that this marriage never took place.

    Inshallah, we will see from thiqat of ibn hibban and also from sahih bukhari some solid evidence of this marriage. But we are not in a hurry.Because the motive is not to argue, but to present evidence and more important I want to understand the methodology adopted by you while presenting evidence.

    But then other references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum ( Blessings on her, the daughter of Imam Ali and Fatima Az Zahra ) were present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.


    ONLY SOME non-Sunni sources that stand out for their unreliability, such as Muruj al-Dahab by the Mu`tazili chronicler (akhbaari) al-Mas`udi (d. 345); Sharh al-Akhbar fi Fada'il al-A'immat al-At-har (3:198) by the ex-Maliki apostate (murtadd cf. Siyar, Fikr ed. 12:284), al-Qadi al-Nu`man ibn Muhammad ibn Mansur al-Maghribi (d. 363); Muthir al-Ahzan by Ibn Nama al-Hilli (d. 645); and Bihar al-Anwar by Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi (d. 1111) among other similarly unscrupulous sources.
    However, that claim is not found in the 14 Shi`i sources cited earlier nor in the Sunni sources.
    The Siyar (Fikr ed. 4:418) among other Sunni sources only name the following Ahl al-Bayt women as present at Karbala' and taken prisoner:
    - Zaynab and Fatima the daughters of `Ali;
    - Fatima and Sukayna the daughters of al-Husayn;
    - al-Rabab al-Kalbiyya the wife of al-Husayn and mother of Sukayna;
    - Umm Muhammad the daughter of al-Hasan ibn `Ali.
    Sukayna is the one that spoke the famous words to Yazid, "Have you taken prisoner the daughters of the Messenger of Allah??" which words are spuriously attributed to Umm Kulthum bint `Ali in some of the non-Sunni accounts such as al-Raghib al-Asfahani's Maqatil al-Talibiyyin (p. 79) and the above-cited sources.
    The only Umm Kulthum present in the whole episode of Karbala' was Yazid's own wife, Umm Kulthum bint `Abd Allah ibn `Amir.


    Long after the incident of Karbala Hazrat Zaineb binte Ali ( blessings on her ) died, then it was that Hazrat Abdullah bin Jafer Tayyar were married to Hazrat Umm Kulthum binte Ali (blessings on her ).


    It is more likely that `Abd Allah ibn Ja`far (d. 80), unlike his two brothers `Awn and Muhammad [he also named his sons thus], was never married to Umm Kulthum (d. <49) at all but only to her sister zaynab (d. 61).
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i am warning you again: you are simply giving quotes without mentioning your agenda. in the latest post, #37, i will assume that you are listing these possibilities to imply that sayyiduna umar did not have 40,000 dirhams to give umm kulthum as mentioned in the narration, and thus implying that the marriage never took place. [if this is wrong, you should state your stand and the reason for your listing these nuggets of information and saying wink-wink, nudge-nudge].

    i sometimes feel pity for you guys. you are either very young and about 11-12 year-old, and therefore you have no clue how the real world works; or you are so foolish that you cannot deduce the bleedingly obvious.

    most likely, some of your father's friends will not remember the details of your father's marriage - even if they have attended it. ask them the mahr, and they will give you some figure. if their report is incorrect, it does not mean that the marriage did not occur.

    this is because, people remember major events and mess up the details. i know people who give me incorrect details of their own marriages, which i know by documentation is wrong (like i was not present on that occasion in the country in that month etc.)

    even with the events of RasulAllah's life sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, we don't have many specific details - or we have conflicting reports. anybody with common sense and not stupid will easily reconcile this as a natural phenomenon. there were no video or audio recordings; in fact, even as recent as 50 years ago, people didn't know their own birthdays. we are talking of 1400 years ago.

    many famous ulama do not have a known year of birth - does that mean they were never born?

    does the narration say that sayyiduna umar never happened to own 40,000 dirhams in his life? somebody could have gifted him, loaned him and so forth. where do you have the proof that he did not own 40,000 or that it was impossible for him to have the 40,000 at that time?

    how does this negate umm kulthum's marriage to sayyiduna umar?

    as for the quotes from isabah etc. in post #36, if i remember well, your pir abdu'l qadir made the same argument, same references and same inferences. let me try to find that first.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  17. in those times 200 dirhams necessitated zakat. here we have 40,000 dirhams.

    imam ahmed in his al-zuhd, for example, relates with a sahih sanad:

    وعن الحسن قال: "خطب عمر الناس، وهو خليفة، وعليه إزار فيه اثنتا عشرة رقعة
    وعن أنس رضي الله عنه قال: "نظرت في قميص عمر رضي الله عنه فإذابين كتفيه أربع رقاع لا يشبه بعضها بعضاً
    وعن قتادة أن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه أبطأ على الناس يوم الجمعة، قال: ثم خرجفاعتذر إليهم في احتباسه، وقال: "إنما حبسني غسل ثوبي هذا، كان يغسل، ولم يكنلي ثوب غيره

    1. hazrat umar as a caliph delivered a khutba whilst he had twelve patches on his loin cloth.

    2. hazrat anas says that we saw Umar's shirt and it had four patches between his shoulders.

    3.hazrat umar came late for juma and apologized that he was late because he only has this one piece of cloth which he washed and this delayed him.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2011
  18. 1. it says that seyyeda umm kulthum was married to hazrat Umar before the age of puberty. she bore two children zayd and ruqayya from him and after Umar was killed, she was married to Aun ibn Jafar, after he died then mohammed ibn jafar and after he dies then abdullah ibn jafar; who married her after the death of seyyeda zaynab.

    question: here we have four marriges of janab e seyyeda. after hazrat umar she married aun ibn jafar and mohammed ibn jafar. BUT both these died in the battle of tustar see: al-istiab, al-isaba, usud al-ghaba, al-tabari, etc. for example, al-isaba says that aun ibn jafar died in the battle of tustar which was during the khilafat of umar.

    so now, we have two extra marriages reported about the seyyeda with people who were not eligible to marry her because she was already married to hz umar and who was alive when the other two died!

    2. Imam ali says that my daughters betrothed to my brothers jafar's sons. yet hazrat Umar still insists on marrying.

    question: seyyeda zaynab was older than seyyeda umm kulthum so why didnt Imam Ali marry her to hz Umar before the little girl? also, it is bukhari and elsehwere that a mulsim man should not ask for someone's hand if she is already arranged for?
    and more importantly a khalifa a rashid goes to the masjid amongst muhajirun and says after marriage with a little girl that فقال: رفئوني. فرفؤوه an expression which a sunnat of jahiliyya and Rasul Allah(s) forbade from saying it. it is term of felicitation to newlyweds. which means live in harmony and beget sons. why would the imam of muslims revive a sunnah of jahiliyya:
    here in musnad of imam ahmed:
    حدثنا الحكم بن نافع حدثنا إسماعيل بن عياش عن سالم بن عبد الله عن عبد الله بن محمد بن عقيل قال تزوج عقيل بن أبي طالب فخرج علينا فقلنا بالرفاء والبنين فقال مه لا تقولوا ذلك فإن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قد نهانا عن ذلك وقال قولوا بارك الله لها فيك وبارك لك فيها
    Rasul Allah(s) forbade to say such things yet amir al-muminin does not know that he is reviving a sunnat of jahliyya and none amongst muhajirun and ansaar did not know? Rasul Allah(s) said dont say it but say barak Allah feek, etc.

    3. it says that Hasan and Hussain were at the janaza of umm kulthum. yet we know that umm kulthum bint Ali was in karbala. imam hasan died before the tragedy of Karbala. ibn tayfur (280 AH) cites a whole khutba in balaghta al-nisa of janab e seyyeda umm kulthum at the advent of karabal. ibn athir in his nihaya, murtaza zabidi in his taj and others refer to the khutba she gave at karbala.

    question: which umm kulthum are we talking about. the one died before karbala or the one who died after karbala.

    these are some questions for you to answer from the first and earliest of sources on the nikah.

    i will return in few days as i have tons of work to do. please, stick to the argument me do not start on me.
  19. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab, I gave you Arabic text with English translation.
    You gave me Arabic text and asked me to translate. I did that and proved that the very text says that marriage took place.

    Now you come again and post a lengthy Arabic narration from Tabaqat ibn sa'd. I requested you that please read the reference given[the link] in post 3.( It has already mentioned Ibn Sa'd)

    I have read the narration which you have posted . But please note, I think it would be better if you first look at all the evidence/ reference and then comment. I am not in a hurry.
  20. the nikah is a historical matter. the very first source in this episode is tabaqat of Ibn sa'd; who died in 230 AH. here is what he says about the whole issue. i will cite the whole arabic passage in first post then i will ask some questions and hopefully you can comment on those for my understanding:

    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif]أمكلثوم[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif]بنت علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي، وأمها فاطمة بنترسول الله، وأمها خديجة بنت خويلد بن أسد بن عبد العزى بن قصي. تزوجها عمر بنالخطاب وهي جارية لم تبلغ فلم تزل عنده إلى أن قتل وولدت له زيد بن عمر ورقية بنتعمر، ثم خلف على أم كلثوم بعد عمر عون بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب فتوفيعنها، ثم خلف عليها أخوه محمد بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب فتوفي عنها، فخلفعليها أخوه عبد الله بن جعفر بن أبي طالب بعد أختها زينب بنت علي بن أبي طالب،فقالت أم كلثوم: إني لأستحيي من أسماء بنت عميس، إن ابنيها ماتا عندي وإني لأتخوفعلى هذا الثالث. فهلكت [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif][FONT=Times New Roman","serif]عندهولم تلد لأحد منهم شيئا.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman","serif][FONT=Times New Roman","serif][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif][FONT=Times New Roman","serif]

    أخبرنا أنس بن عياض الليثي عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه أن عمر بن الخطاب خطب إلى عليبن أبي طالب ابنته أم كلثوم، فقال علي: إنما حبست بناتي على بني جعفر. فقال عمر:أنكحنيها يا علي فوالله ما على ظهر الأرض رجل يرصد من حسن صحابتها ما أرصد. فقالعلي: قد فعلت. فجاء عمر إلى مجلس المهاجرين بين القبر والمنبر، وكانوا يجلسون ثمعلي وعثمان والزبير وطلحة وعبد الرحمن بن عوف فإذا كان الشيء يأتي عمر من الآفاقجاءهم فأخبرهم ذلك واستشارهم فيه. فجاء عمر فقال: رفئوني. فرفؤوه وقالوا: بمن ياأمير المؤمنين؟ قال: بابنة علي بن أبي طالب. ثم أنشأ يخبرهم فقال: إن النبي، صلىالله عليه وسلم، قال كل نسب وسبب منقطع يوم القيامة إلا نسبي وسببي، وكنت قد صحبتهفأحببت أن يكون هذا أيضا.​

    أخبرنا وكيع بن الجراح عن هشام بن سعد عن عطاء الخراساني أنصلى على أم كلثوم وزيدبن عمر بن الخطاب فجعل زيدا فيما يلي الإمام وشهد ذلك حسن وحسين.

    أخبرنا وكيع بن الجراح عن حماد بن سلمة عن عمار بن أبي عمار [FONT=Times New Roman","serif]مولىبني هاشم قال: شهدتهم يومئذ وصلى عليهما سعيد بن العاص وكان أمير الناس يومئذوخلفه ثمانون من أصحاب محمد، صلى الله عليه وسلم.

    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman","serif]
    أخبرنا جعفر بن عون بن جريج عن نافع قال: وضعت جنازة أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالبامرأة عمر بن الخطاب وابن لها يقال له زيد، والإمام يومئذ سعيد بن العاص.​

    أخبرنا عبد الله بن نمير، حدثنا إسماعيل بن أبي خالد عن عامر قال: صلى بن عمر علىأخيه زيد وأم كلثوم بنت علي، وكان سريرهما سواء، وكان الرجل مما يلي الإمام.





    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2011

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