Shaykh Gibril: Umar's Marriage with Umm Kulthum

Discussion in 'Tarikh' started by sunnistudent, Nov 28, 2011.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Taqleed ki ravish se to behtar hai khudkushi
    Rasta bhi dhoond Khizr ka sauda bhi chor de

    caveat emptor: except when it is western science and philosophy.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    okay, i will simplify it for you.

    can you see the matrix? it is safe for you to go with the greens on any issue.

    you don't possess the basics of quadratic equations, but you want to comment on riemann integration or laplace transforms.

    on any issue, there are 14-1 opinions, who would you choose? let us say, you choose the aberrant one. but you cannot make a habit to choose all the aberrant ones, and state: 'difference of opinion'.

    if you are sincere, you will go with the greens.

    there are problematic issues. well known scholars may have one or two such issues. the general rule with such issues is, later scholars analyze it and accept/reject this. when well-known and reliable scholars accept it, it becomes one of the two standard opinions.

    furthermore, if it is a fiqh ruling, it is not as serious as an aqidah issue or one upon which there is ijma'a.

    contrary to your poor opinion of our scholars, it is one of the most detailed and the finest corpus of criticism you will find in religious sciences. the binayah i quoted is a twelve volume work; and his student wrote another (though he couldn't complete it). each stating the previous one, and commenting if he has to, adding to the insights.

    your problem is that you don't even examine the evidence before rushing off to the execution chamber.

    in this case of umm kulthum not marrying sayyiduna umar; i made an offer to gg: let him list as many sources as he can that reject this marriage and i will list as many as i can that mention this marriage. as gg has himself proclaimed he will not bother with shi'yi sources, which is fine and i congratulate him on that bold stand.

    if you are talking about any specific issue, please ask specifically and let us not generalize. i am sorry if my replies have been curt, but that is how i will reply to anyone who won't get off his high horse.
  3. Taqleed ki ravish se to behtar hai khudkushi
    Rasta bhi dhoond Khizr ka sauda bhi chor de

  4. sidi AH there are two answers to your "who are you to decide?" question:

    1. i am a human being whom Allah has given a brain and told to use. so shouldn't i use it?

    2. "follow the scholars"--but which ones if all 3 are ahlus sunnah? see, it is a circular argument.

    it's like saying, "follow any scholar as long as he believes what you (already) believe".
    for example,

    if i, NJ, read books by "barelwi" scholars i know they will say what i already believe so where's the benefit in that?!
    isn't it more honest intellectually to read all sides of an argument and come to one's own conclusion?
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  5. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam r ghaus sahab, if you really want to discuss this issue, please start another thread. I am surprised that you are asking this. Ala Hazrat abstained because the tawba of ismail dehlavi was famous ( mashhur) [ See Fatwa Rashidiya]. Ala Hazrat did not doubt in his kufr, but abstained from fatwa due to the tawba being famous.

    Please start another thread and we can discuss this in detail. I am not answering this in this thread.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who are you to decide? either become a scholar and reach that capability, or listen to scholars.

    pir abdu'l qadir jilani and his motley crew don't count.
  7. how do we decide which position is mainstream/which is abberant/which is unclear if/when respected scholars of ahlus sunnah can be found in all 3 categories?
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    actually i made a nice little infographic. i wanted to write in detail, but in the changed circumstances, where instant info is more valid than thought.

    in the saqafat of the past 1300 years, you are sure to find a scholar with a non-standard opinion. our job is to avoid that and be with the greens. but there are some deluded maulvis who spend their time collecting the reds.

    a common person should ask himself: do you want to be a shadh-hunter?

    Attached Files:

  9. brother lets not go down this road. present your evidence and i present my evidence otherwise, you talk about scholars. i give you an example:

    hz fazle haq khayrabadi issued a fatwa of kufr for ismail dehlavi and many ulama signed it. at the end in tehqiq al-fatwa hz fazle haq khayrabadi says whoever doubts in the kufr of ismail dehlavi is also kafir.

    alahazrat never issued a fatwa of kufr upon ismail dehlavi yet he refers to tehqiq al-fatwa in his refutation of ismail dehlavi.

    if one was to say that according to fazle haq khayrabadi's fatwa whoever does not consider ismail dehlavi kafir then such a person would become kafir the what?

    if you say lazum/iltizam that in alahazrat's time ismail dehlavi had died so couldnt make sure directly from him. therefore, he didnt call him a kafir. but those upon whom alahazrat issued takfir, how can ulama today do what alahzart couldnt do with ismail dehlavi?
  10. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I need to compile all shahdh opinion of all the scholars and then pick and follow which ever I like.

    But I still want people to call me " ahlus sunnah".
  11. and you follow him in this, right?
  12. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I fail to understand what did you make from that text. Please enlighten me because the text actually says that the marriage took place!

    The last part is

    [FONT=&quot]وذكر ابن وهب عن عبد الرحمن بن زيد بن أسلم عن أبيه عن جده أن عمر بن الخطاب تزوج أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب على مهر أربعين ألفا[/FONT]​

    which was already mentioned

    "Umar rd gave her( umm kulthum bin Ali rd) a dowry of 40,000 dirhams at marriage"
    [and this was in honor of her lineage to the Messenger of Allah , sal allahu alayhi wa sallam]

    Also , we have agreed to provide Ahlus sunnah sources, so please read the evidence which is mentioned in post no 3 of this thread ( the link)

    The text which you have given actually proves that marriage took place!

    A side note :

    1)Shah Abdul Aziz muhaddith dehalvi considers Sayyedina Abu Bakr siddiq rd to be afzal among all the sahaba. BUT i will not follow him on this issue.

    2) Shah Abdul Aziz muhaddith dehlavi rh , also accepts the authenticity of the narration regarding the marriage of umm kulthum bint Ali rd with Umar rd. BUT i will not follow him on this issue.

    3) Shah Abdul Aziz muhaddith dehlavi rh , wrote lanat upon Marwan . I WILL follow him in this.

  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @gg: i have no respect for your own ijtihad or your pir abdu'l qadir's spin-offs, who can put two and two and make 22.

    if you have any sunni source that says umm kulthum bint ali did not marry sayyiduna `umar, then please state it and get done with it.

    i have another proposal:
    you can list as many sunni sources as you can that dispute this marriage - explicitly say that this marriage never happened (contemporaries NOT allowed) and i will list the sources that mention this marriage.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the best way to do it is to compile all this in one paper and release it.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why? you cannot?
  16. and also from Isaba:................. أن عمر خطب أم كلثوم إلى علي فقال إنما حبست بناتي على بني جعفر.......
  17. no that is not relevant.
  18. I am not shia and you are not a nasbi so only sensible thing here is to deal with ahlesunnat sources and evidences. for example:

    أن عمر خطب إلى علي ابنته أم كلثوم فذكر له صغرها فقيل له إنه ردك فعاوده فقال له علي أبعث بها إليك فإن رضيت فهي امرأتك فأرسل بها إليه فكشف عن ساقها فقالت مه لولا إنك أمير المؤمنين للطمت عينيك ................تزوج عمر أم كلثوم على مهر أربعين

    i leave for you to translate.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2011
  19. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Something relevant

    Imam Jafar as sadiq ( Rd)

    The son of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, son of al-Imam Zain al-`Abidin, son of al-Husayn, son of `Ali bin Abi Talib (Rd) , Ja`far was born on the eighth of Ramadan in the year 83 H.

    His mother was the daughter of al-Qassim whose great grandfather was Abu Bakr as-Siddiq .(Rd)

    Also, Sahar Banu (Rd) the wife of Sayyedina Imam Hussein (rd) was caught as a prisoner of war during the rightful and legitimate khilafa of Sayyedina Umar (rd). The marriage took place after she was freed.
  20. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Trust me,

    is a shia website and al kafi is a shia book. I am sure about it.You see, I have given direct link to the ahadith.

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