They call this "sama"

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Wadood, Sep 2, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

  2. deleted.

    aH: i have deleted your comments not because i love the professor, but only because baseless comments like yours hurt the cause. shouting around won't help.

    if you have legitimate criticism which is not mere hearsay and rumor, please go ahead and post it.

    and please don't spam the board.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2009
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    what we see in the first two videos (astaghfirullah, but had to watch to comment) is haram.

    in the third video, the professor so confidently justifies raqS/dancing. not only does he demonstrate his ignorance of the subject, but also violates quite a few principles of fiqh along the way.

    presently, i cannot write/translate in detail, but since these glib talking maulvis cheat the general public with 'citations', i think it is necessary to clarify the issue.

    even a person without extensive knowledge of hadith can see the obvious fallacies:

    1. is raqS/Hajal mentioned in the hadith, the same dancing in our time? for example witnessed by tahir in the videos below?

    1a. similarly terms like mizmar, ma'azif etc - do we refer to a contemporary dictionary for such meanings or refer to hadith-lexicologists like qaDi iyaD, az-zabidi and others for context of these words and their older meanings?

    1b. we come across various words like hatif (=telephone in modern arabic) and sa'ah(=watch in common usage). do these words mean the same in the past? or sayyarah(=car).

    2. is such dancing [considered as allowed by some sufis] in a state of forgetfulness or deliberate moves?

    3. what did the imams of hadith and fiqh have to say in this matter? is tahir the first person in islamic history to come across these hadith or comment upon them?

    4. has any scholar up until the last century permitted this kind of singing/music/dancing?

    i have listed a few books in the end and i went through them before writing this comment. almost all of them describe the shaking clapping dancing as dance of eunuchs and hermaphrodites. particularly hard hitting is ibn hajar al-haytami (not contiguous quotes):
    as for dancing accompanied by clapping and prancing; sashaying similar to the levity in walk like women - none but a heedless person or an ignoramus showoff does it. this (action) proves the ignorance (jahalah) of one who does it.
    many scholars have ruled that clapping is Haram for men as the hadith says: 'clapping is for women'
    concerning some of the hadith (mentioned by tahir too), where 'Hajal' is mentioned, al-haytami says:
    [if one says:] Hajal means to walk measuredly and to shake; that is to dance.

    the answer is: all of these are rejected hadith (ahadith munkarah). and the wording in some of these hadith is forgery and slander. even if the authenticity of the hadith is proven, it cannot be used as proof because dancing with breaking movements and sashaying like women is Haram; not this. (aH:see my comments below).

    as i have already said, ulama have explained this issue in great detail. ibn Hajar's book is 191 pages (including contents), iHya deals with this subject in 67 pages and az-zabidi's gloss is approximately 150 pages in small font.

    summary from these books:
    dancing mentioned in hadith is involuntary and spontaneous jumping for joy, not the deliberate synchronous and breaking movements, sashaying like women or shaking the midriffs and hips; tapping toes rythmically, prancing and chassé etc. which are all Haram dancing.

    the dancing of the habashis (abyssinians/ethiopians) mentioned in the hadith is irregular movements and acting like a sword-fight with weapons, and jumping which is not rythmic.

    clapping and swaying with the tune is considered as deliberate dancing meant to entertain, not the spontaneous dance of joy when a saHabi is told by the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam that he is his brother.
    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    imam ghazzali first describes sama'a, its types, constituents; permissibility and impermissible samaa'a; proofs in both cases and answers to objections. and then elucidates on who is eligible to listen to such a samaa'a and the rules to be followed in listening to sama'a.

    if tahir or any other maulvi disagrees with the ruling that music-qawwalis and eunuch like singing and dancing is haram, let them write a point by point refutation of the below five treatises. merely quoting hadith and presenting them in such a way to suit one's own opinion is not honesty.

    trivia: interstingly, al-haytami slams idfawi (or udfuwi) (for circulating reports on dancing etc) and says that 'he follows ibn tahir (sic) in all his falsehoods'.

    further reading:
    - masayil e sama'a by alahazrat

    - iHya al-ulum, al-ghazzali vol.2/book.8 and its gloss: it'Haf as-sadah, az-zabidi

    - nuz'hatu'l asmaa'a fi mas'alati's samaa'a by ibn rajab al-hanbali

    - kaff ar-ra'aa'a by ibn hajar al-haytami

    - kashf al-qana'a an hukmi'l wajdi wa's sama'a by al-qurtubi

    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    Ghulam Ali, Unbeknown and Aqdas like this.
  4. faqir

    faqir Veteran


  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    If you're talking about my comment on the Marifah url mentioned on info section of the tahirul padri hadra proofs video, I made no insinuation in regards to responsibility of one for another's deeds...

    Just wondered if the person who uploaded it had any connection with Marifah or if anyone from Marifah knows him.

    disclaimer: I realise full well Marifah is a content site and anyone will peruse their content for any reason.
  6. Just because A links to B, does not mean B is responsible for what A has done...
  7. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    This stuff makes me literally sick. I know there's many discussion Tahir-ulQadris credentials but how cane any sane person justify this.I mean if it weren't so serious it would be funny. Whats more sickening he will justify this as being perfectly jaiz. No wonder our youth are being attracted by the bad-aqeeda, we don't exactly make their job hard do we. I thank Allah the net has given me to true sunniyat as i probably would have gone down the same route.......
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    whoa! its interesting the video you link to Wadood (in post no. 8), actually links to a Marifah article in the info box to the right... just expand it to "more info" and you will find this there:

    wonder if anyone on the Marifah team knows the person who uploaded the video.

    as I said, sama and hadra have conditions and etiquettes. whats shown in the videos in the preceding posts cannot be justified by any stretch; or else, we might as well justify abuse of religious injunctions on a billion other issues... there's plenty of other such long bows we can draw on matters of marriage, divorce, prayers, fasting etc.
  9. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the differences of fiqhi opinions on matters of music, sama and hadra by our brothers in Ahlus Sunnah - do not incorporate this dirty hippy culture that some of these videos display... mostly there are very tight conditions for sama

    personally speaking, i think in the first video, the gathering is a deliberate attempt to make a mockery of Islam and Sufism... the wahabis will have a field day with it, and the nonMuslims will see it as "moderation" and "tolerance of nonMuslim Indian influence from the Punjab" and other such things... and the kind of "Islam" that must be made welcome and set as a benchmark for the west...

    may Allah's curse befall the shayateen who lead people to such filth in the name of Islam and tasawwuf

    laa hawla walaa quwwata illaa billaahil 'aliyyil 'azdheem!
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    now do people understand why the fuqaha described these imbeciles as 'hermaphrodites'?
  12. they may recite his kalam but they dont implement his teachings or follow his way at all. thier everthing is tahir ul qadri minhaj ul quran
  13. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    This second part of the video is much more important

    I can't believe it. Are they this crazy of Shaykh Tahirul Qadiri? But he is not a murshid.

    They even recite 'ala haDrat's salam at the end. But 'ala haDrat did not condone such behaviour
  14. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    I am confused. Shaykh Tahirul Qadiri is not a sufi shaykh, is that correct? I am sure he is no murshid. I also saw another video of Noori Bori Wala. This Minhaj ul Quran video is very similar to that video.

    I think this is a new wave of mass-dance-during-qawali-sessions that is spreading across rural Punjab, in Pakistan.

    One group does it, another copies the group. The illiterate masses just copy.

    The video below is of Noori Bori Wala
  15. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page