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Discussion in 'Bickering' started by AbdalQadir, Oct 30, 2014.
propagating hearsay is almost the same thing. we need to be sure when we propagate things like this.
i don't think he meant to lie or cause fitnah, rather he could just be mis-informed
i'm still waiting for proof from qasim hanafi ridawi for stating that Usayd ul Haq was on the board of jama-e-noor.
if he can't provide evidence for his claims, he should take it back and not lie about a deceased and martyred Muslim and cause fitnah
Hazrat Mufti Ashraf-ul-Qadri hafizahullah of Murarian Sharif (Naik Abad) also said that Tahir is "kam as kam sakht tareen gumraah" (at the very least very deviant) and "us ke qowl or fi'l me kufriyaat pai jaate hai" (in his wording and acts there can be found kufriyaat). And that it is possible that he is a kafir, but I don't do his takfir for that there might be a possible interpretation of it. Somebody needs to talk with him on the different issues, to make it more clear. But I also don't say that he is not already a kaafir.
That was with "Malfuzaat", and probably done to maintain the DI image of being "neutral". But it is not plentiful.
What confuses me is that if DI can print the splendid Bahaare Shariat, (with the first Volume on Aqaaed), what more is there to hide? Does not Maulana Ilyaas repeatedly claim that he loves & follows Ala Hazrat? So DI is now well-known, and not "neutral" any more.
silence is bad: but worse still is portraying Dr Tahir as a "non-sunni" - for it gives the impression that he is "not a murtad".
If they did not want to say it themselves, I wish they had referred to the latest fatawa pronouncing Dr Tahir a murtad.
there is still time........
okay but what when implicit messages are sent out that those who are speaking out against all this are good at just that - hurling fatwas at people's backs and telling people off - whereas we the calm and reposed, wise and smiling sufi, we believe in calling people to truth with love, we are so much better - we never speak out against any one, we are so productive, we have better things to do - we are a complete package, there is no need to attend anyone else's lectures - they will fill your heart with hatred for people, while we fill it with compassion and understanding. so come, come hither and find peace.
I am sorry for being melodramatic - but I feel that this condescending attitude riddles the mind of most who attach themselves to the aforesaid movement AND many groups in India too. I say it again that these things arrive implicitly - I have observed it on multiple occasions. may be I am seeing things and I am open to suggestions.
that is the state of pakistani ulema in general
perhaps they feel (rightly or wrongly) they can serve Sunniyat better by just being alive and/or out of jail and/or with their limbs intact - again, not every scholar is a lion like Ala Hazrat or Mufti A3zdham Hind
mentioned some words before - threats, politics, politicians, media, mafia
let me add to that - tahir also has the support of Arab and western heretics like ali jifry and his common word team of scoundrels including grand heretics of the Al-Azhar like ali gomaa
pakistan is a corrupt nation drenched in anarchy and chaos where corrupt and zindiq politicians with money, power & political pull (local and global including 'murrica) are trying to make the awam and the ulema feel guilty and regretful for declaring the qadianis kafirs, so adding tahir to that list just adds that much to the problems from these zindiq puppets
it's also surprising there is no unified strong fatwa from indian ulema too on tahir, or for that matter few to zero fatawa from indian ulema on the murtads working in bollywood who routinely sport the cross or bow to idols and consider marriage to hindus as halal, and these shaytans too have a fan following with the masses. there should be a strong fatwa from indian ulema that states that acting as kafirs bowing to idols and marrying hindus, or singing kufriya songs is chronic apostasy and such a person should never be included in one's duas or buried in a Muslim graveyard unless and until he denounces all religions other than Islam and becomes Muslim again!
yes there are general fatawa on murtads that cover all those things like bowing to idols, wearing the cross, and so on, but there should be new fatawa with the specific mention of the bollywood industry by name. the awam of these times is not like the awam of Ala Hazrat's time in terms of deeni knowledge
the murtad kafir, salman khan's 'being human' brand should be collectively banned by all Muslims, specially of the subcontinent. there is salman's entire life philosophy behind that brand name 'being human' where he considers all religions as the same and doesn't believe in religion being an identity in itself. instead, that brand is now being promoted in the middle east too, many times by subcontinental businessmen
my last post should not be misinterpreted as i am against dawat e islami. they have done good work and that is acknowledged.
concerning refutation - yes, it is right that everybody should not indulge in refutation; and even as a policy, if dawat e islami doesn't do refutation in official channels - they still print sunni books and polemical literature.
for example, allamah sayyid ahmed saeed kazmi sahib's book is nicely printed by dawate islami among some such titles.
- al-haqq al-mubin (kazmi shah sahib rahmatullahi alayh)
- jaa al-Haqq - (i have not seen any other book house print it so well)
- tamhid e eeman / husam al haramayn
- kitab al-aqayid of sadr al-afaDil
a number of good sunni titles are listed in DI sites; and available as cheap paperbacks or hardbound.
on the other hand, you will not find a single book (unless i am mistaken - correct me if i am wrong) from any group (and let me add: knowingly) that is inimical to alahazrat. not a single book that has praised devbandis, or wahabi rafidi or sulah kulli works are printed by DI.
i suppose they are strong proponents of positive reinforcement.
there was outcry recently that they were tampering with alahazrat's books - and i don't recall the exact issue. if they are doing it thus with all books, it is bad - but if it is by mistake or one or two instances of overenthusiastic streak of bowdlerism, it is still tolerable (but with stern warning); sometimes, it could be print mistake etc. - that is they should correct it when brought to their notice.
but if they are doing it intentionally, and plentifully, it is bad.
but still the deafening silence on tahir is perplexing.
Allah ta'ala knows best.
i have said before that i consider dawat e islami as sunnis; i disagree with certain operational methods and certain positions - yet, i have a number of friends in dawat e islami.
we are from the cynical south (asifj would call us swarthy head-nodding idli munchers... ) and certain actions which may be commonplace in pakistan are weird to us and we shrug at them as weirdness.
dawat e islami might have their own objectives, focus etc. but speaking out against fitan and clarifying sunni position is also their duty - as much as teaching people how to pray.
i am not a scholar, but i refuted tahir because i felt it was my duty, even though i am still a student. why don't scholars and pirs and people with influence do it?
there is a hadith that says when fitna or bid'ah is widespread and the latter ones slander/curse the elder ones, those who have knowledge should demonstrate it (or spread it) and if they don't do so, Allah ta'ala will not accept either their farD nor their nafl. (paraphrased).
in another similar hadith: "when the latter ones of this ummah curse their predecessors; whoever has knowledge should demonstrate it, because one who conceals knowledge is as if he has concealed (everything) that has been revealed to Muhammad SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam."
in another similar hadith: "one who conceals knowledge, Allah ta'ala will shackle him in reins of fire"
there is no reason for any scholar or muslim of influence to not expend whatever the can to stem the fitna or bida'h of people like tahir.
remember people who fight such fitan are praised in the hadith as: "they who do not fear the lament or criticism of those who criticise"
Allah ta'ala knows best.
can you please point me to the wall and the writing?
maybe not, so i ask.
if you didn't claim either of the 2 (supporting heresy or heretics), then really i got nothing against your being not-pro-DI. if i assume the best of you, which i should, it is only difference of opinion of furoo3 and duniyawi mu3amalat that you have with DI, and that shouldn't and doesn't bother me as a Sunni.
i am at peace with you brother.
please note that in the same vein, were you a die hard DI-supporter, but not-pro-Mubarakpur in the same manner as you are not-pro-DI, my comments to you would still be the same
the axiom that i am trying to get at, is this - as long as a person/group does not violate Sunniyat AND also does not support heresies or heretics, our differences and likes and dislikes are only superficial and it is detrimental to the interests of Sunniyat to let them get to us
we agree, but in recent times that line has lost its magic too to an extent
hence we have to get down to the principles of Sunniyat itself and see who is merely hijacking the names of the akabir and who isn't
every tom dick and harry perennialist and wahabi also claims to stick to the akabir. in fact the padri screams the Ghawth's blessed name left, right and center, but we're all arguing here about how best Sunnis should work to eradicate his fitnah!
so have been millions of Sunnis including myself, and therefore i say - one strike and you're out
the first instance that you see DI or any person or group violate Sunniyat or support heresy or knowingly support heretics, you should run from them like you would from the plague
so far, neither you nor i have witnessed such in regards to DI. if someone has, let them bring their evidence forward
I do not know what is the way in which you thought i said it. I've said it plain and simple. you are saying things based on your own reading of the situation and you may turn out to be wrong. your statement was a huge brush with which you painted everyone alike and I took exception to that. You struck many with that statement.
the writing is on the wall. you may not have noticed or perhaps things look different from where you stand. not everything gets video-taped - infact what should get video-taped is always planned before hand - unless someone conducts a sting-op. personal anecdotes do not qualify as indisputable evidence so I won't waste my time narrating them.
I think 'anti-DI' is a very strong term. Lets say I'm not pro-DI for many reasons. I am not sure I can put my convictions about them on a sheet of paper for they are not very concrete. but I have doubts and I have expressed them. you seem to be very sure about everything whereas I prefer to wait. I have been duped before, I have no appetite for another ride.
I never claimed either of the above. There are scholars like Mufti Shamsul Huda Misbahi who are very supportive of it and won't hear a word against it.
hope time proves me wrong. With DI the stakes are huge.
oh no, I was not referring to myself. that would be a wee-bit big-headed, no?
you misunderstood me. when I said 'baseerah' I did not mean wahy/ilham/ vision/premonition/epiphanies or anything of that sort. I meant foresight and wisdom.
"AL-barakah ma'a akaabirikum" - I prefer to stick to the akabir.
Brother Wadood, I know: but then they should simply keep mum - do not send a soft, confusing answer on these issues!!
They dodged the question because they want to avoid sectarianism, and being labelled as extremist by the common Muslim on the streets in Pakistan and India and Bangladesh. The common Muslim does not have the best opinion of MOLVIS.
And DI is trying its best to appeal to the common Muslim, to take him/her out of the chains of ghaflat. Of course they do not promote the teachings of Dr Tahir.
They are playing the STEALTH SUNNI CARD, if you understand what i mean.
They will not attack shiites, wahabites, deobandiites similarly. Nor even non-Muslims.
Below is the VERY CLEAR question we posed to them, in May 2012, way after the Wembley Circus, hoping that it would benefit the awaam :-
Question: Salaam alaykum. What is the opinion of Ahle Sunnah scholars regarding Professor Tahir? Is he a good sunni aalim or is he a murtad?
This is the answer I received (audio recording, which is attached)
Please Click here to download your answer.
Apna jawab mhefoz kerne ke lye yahan click karen.
This is the transcript of the reply:-
"Tahir ul Qadri ke baare mein jaan-ne ke liye, Waqaar ul Fataawa ki pehli jild ka mutaala kijiye".
Is the answer in line with the question? or even Beneficial?
Again, I am definitely NOT holding DI "solely" responsible to confront Dr Tahir: but they did dodge the question.
And yes, we need a concerted action, from all Ulema, especially those from Pakistan; I have seen FOUR (4) fatwas from India, and only ONE (1) from Pakistan (by Mufti Mohammed Fazle Rasool Sialvi.) His Fatwa is also attached here. And it was issued in April 2011. I am sure the muftis of DI knew about it, when we asked them.
Pakistan is not like India. There is a lot of politics, and Dr Tahir has an established political party in the country. Fatwas of takfir are avoided in Pakistan due to the culture of sectarianism. If the Pakistani ulama wanted, they can issue a fatwa against Altaf Bhai of MQM, the biggest terrorist, murderous organization in Pakistan, but they dont, as it is a matter of national security, and because Altaf Bhai has a big following.
Pakistani Scholars who have killed Dr. Tahir's confusion
1) Scholars from Bhikki Shareef
2) Scholars from Multan Shareef ( Shah Ahmad Saeed Kadhimi's Students)
3) Scholars from Gujraat [ Punjab ] as Shaykh Ashraf Qadiri
4) Shah Tarab ul Haq Qadiri
5) Shaykh Okarvi [ who is in the pictures with Shaykh Usaid ul Haq Shaheed ]
Shaykh Okarvi [ from among the Scholars of Okara, Punjab ] is among the first Pakistani ulama to expose Dr Tahir.
Shaykh Ashraf Qadiri on Dr Tahir
when i said not every fatwa needs to be publicized, i meant that it is possible they might have issued a fatwa of riddah in private to someone
no, it doesn't help the awam much.
and neither does anyone else's fatwa - especially from pakistan.
in this case, almost everything (that i am aware of) that has come out of pakistani ulema is at the same level of vagueness.
can you bring a fatwa from PROMINENT pakistani ulema or darul ulooms? (not a rhetoric question. i am really hunting for reputable ulema's hard core fatwa on tahir, Hussam ul Haramayn style)
of course, if everyone does something, it's no evidence of it being right - BUT - i say again, tahir's mess runs deeper into politics, media and mafia
on this forum, i have seen only 2 to 3 fatwas declaring tahir a murtad. one is by Akhtar Raza Sahib, another by Misbahi Sahib, and i think there might have been a third one.
again, when it comes to tahir, i am NOT satisfied with the actions Sunni ulema and darul iftaa's have taken - be they from DI or any city or organization.
it's all in bits and pieces leaving the awam to connect the dots
you misunderstood what i said. let me rephrase that:
anything anyone says against DI thus far can only be counted as intra-Sunni-envy, jalaapa, and sadraapa at worst; or simply a disagreement with their furoo3 in deen and strategy in duniya at best!
if in the future they do something that violates Sunniyat, then of course they will be called out.
i say again brother:
bring some evidence that DI supports
a) heretic individual/group xyz with full knowledge of their heresies; or
b) heretic position xyz
if someone can't provide any evidence for this, they got nothing on DI in terms of Sunniyat.
you can hate their operating strategies or refute them on the furoo3i masaail of movies, but it doesn't mean anything.
this applies to any and every Sunni person or group of the face of the earth.
not every Sunni in the world will be from DI, not every Sunni in the world will be Arab, not every Sunni in the world will be Qadiri or Ridawi, not every Sunni in the world will be Hanafi
we can and will differ on furoo3 and worldly strategies, but that is no reason for holding grudges or looking down upon each other.
see this bayan of the martyred Usayd ul Haq (rahimahullah)
I love DI. They are the ONLY subcontinental organization that has kept Sunnis and AlaHazrat's blessed name alive in Canada. And they are Pakistanis basically.
Most indians in Canada are sell outs to deobandi wahabism, and this is the parent generation. Their kids don't give a damn about their parent's religion, some turning out humanists, others suleh-kulli, others salafis, and still others modernist ikhwanis.
In terms of Sunnis, Pakistanis are 100 times better (in quantity and quality) than Indians, due to their dominant stubborn love of Sunniyat or Sunni Pakistani Culture; one reason is that there are so many Pakistanis (Punjabis, Kashmiris, Karachiites), and because of the country Pakistan being essentially a Sunni country with dozens of religious satellite channels, sunni dominated channels, and newspapers pervading their society (QTv, takbeer tv, hum tv, ARY, dunya, sama, aag etc) unlike deobandi wahabi dominated indians, especially gujaratis. While Indian Muslims are emerging out of the shadows, and realizing the deceit of wahabism.
Please note that the head-quarters of salafi wahabism is Dr Nayak in Bombay, India.
The Hyderabadis Dakkanis are a very quiet and confused group.
The question itself seems made up, or copied from Waqar ul Fataawa.
DI publicized this themselves.
Great! but ...........
Exactly: so do you think this vague fatwa from DI helps???
I fear you will soon see people referring to this fatwa, saying 'Dr. Tahir "murtad" nahin hai'. Astaghferullah
why? is DI (or I or anybody else) above criticism or perfect?? nobody is.
brother AbdalQadir: I don't have any personal grudge against DI, nor am I a member of any other organization: whether it is DI or anyone else, they all have to speak the truth, the whole truth when asked: when you have a "Dar ul Ifta" why not issue a detailed fatwa yourself, with the latest "updates", instead of just "referring" to an old fatwa? Did Ala Hazrat just keep referring to old fatawas, without as much as stating the current, relevant state of affairs, wherever applicable?
I wonder if it would have better if DI just kept quite, rather than releasing this paper.....
i am a nobody. our elders changed their rulings in light of evidences that they did not formerly see, so i don't take this 'eating my words' thing in the way you said it. if you give me evidence and prove me wrong, then i accept i was wrong. big whoop.
all i ask of the anti-DI people is this -
bring some evidence that DI supports
a) heretic individual/group xyz with full knowledge of their heresies; or
b) heretic position xyz
of course time will show all.
we are commanded to act only on the apparent, not on esoteric visions.
only the wahiy of the anbiyaa is certain.
even awliyaa caution each other against the interference of shaytan in their ilhams. just who are we and what is our baseerah?
sorry but that is simply an esoterist statement made by the likes of mark hanson's fanboys on deenport.
we are Sunnis, not batinis.
very few people are lions like Ala Hazrat or Mufti A3zdham Hind. a lot of times even good-intentioned ulema will think that they can serve Sunniyat better by avoiding these political, media, and mafia threats from the heretics