When was RasulAllah ﷺ granted nubuwwah?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Apr 27, 2020.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    koyi doosra pahlu nahin hai. ek hi pahlu hai. pahlu tahi na kijiey.
     
  2. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    اتنی لمبی تقریر کی بجائے اگر آپ پہلے دو ٹوک بتلا دیتے کہ اس مقدس بشر کا نام کیا ہے جس کو اللہ تعالی نے سب سے آخر میں نبوت سے سرفراز فرمایا تو یہ جو آپ دوسرے پہلوؤں پر بات کر رہے ہیں ان سب کا جواب باری باری آجاتا کم از کم ترتیب کے ساتھ تو چلیں

    (this is from Allama Zahid Sultani. One of Allama Saeed Asads present students)
     
  3. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    I'm guessing here brother, but it could be that groups such as the Qadianis for example send people to the Ulema to question these types of issues. So it's possible they are responding with such discourses. Maybe that's the need. It's easy for someone like me not to worry about such an issue because I can be selective in what I care to think about.
     
  4. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    What I don't understand is why do these "scholars" even start such discussions? What are they trying to achieve by this? Why do they even try to speak about things that may even remotely be seen as undermining the fazeelat of our Nabi Kareem (saws)? Do they forget whom they are talking about?

    They should even not speak about their such thoughts to another person let along give a public discourse!
     
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  5. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    saeed asad is mixing up nubuwwah with beysat - and citing textual proofs using the words "nubuwwah" which actually mean "beysat".

    the aqeedah espoused by him opens the doors to other questions and probable fitnas...

    1. What is the meaning of Rehmatu li alAlameen?
    2. If Nubuwwah starts at the start of Tableegh, when does it end? (astaghferullah).
    3. If Nubuwwah is only for a bashar (living soul in a body), then what is the status of all those personalities now? are they still Prophets or not??
    4. How does he explain the hadeeth that "The earth is forbidden from consuming the bodies of the Prophets".
    5. How does he explain the hadeeth that "The Prophets are alive in their graves; they are provided sustenance."
     
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  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    as for allamah sahib's question,

    سوال: اس مقدس بشر کا نام کیا ہے جس کو اللہ تعالی نے سب نبیوں کے آخر میں منصب نبوت سے سرفراز فرمایا؟

    a more pertinent answer is in the hadith of irbad ibn sariyah, in dalayil al-nubuwwah of bayhaqi:

    dalayil v2p130.jpg


    in the takhrij of this hadith [i have not checked these myself; cited as is]:

    - imam ahmad in his musnad 4/127

    - hakim in mustadrak and said: "this hadith is SaHiH al-isnad" and dhahabi concurred with him 2/600

    - haythami mentioned it in majma'a al-zawayid 8/223 and said ahmad, Tabarani and bazzar; one of the chains [asanid] of ahmad has SaHiH narrators except sayid ibn suwayd; and even he was validated as thiqah [trustworthy] by ibn Hibban.

    - ​


    dalayil FN v2p130.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in the hadith of muslim, "qabla an ub'ath" - before biysat:

    muslim 2277.jpg


    now in tirmidhi, the same hadith is mentioned and notice the chapter title.

    tirmidhi 3624.jpg


    and another hadith in tirmidhi:

    tirmidhi, 3626.jpg


    in sunan darimi, the same hadith as in muslim above:

    darimi, 20.jpg


    ============
    but even more relevant to our discussion is this hadith of darimi, and the event of shaqq al-Sadr:
    darimi #13, in muqaddimah. do notice the chapter title; and the question of the SaHabi too:


    darimi, 13.jpg
     
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  8. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Shaykh Abu Hasan
    I know we await Brother Nooris pdf. What's the chance u could post a response in urdu answering what they ask. I can then forward that and they can respond.
    I would do it myself but I'm not fluent in Urdu so don't want to do something I can't do justice to
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a classic example of begging the question (i mean logical fallacy, not the prevalent incorrect usage of the phrase). this question makes mawlana saeed paint himself in a corner. is he denying the hadith that say he SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was a prophet when hazrat adam was still uncreated?

    it is strange that writing, granting, proclaiming that RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was nabiy, is not equivalent to "mansab e nubuwwat se nawazna"? and he is pointedly ignoring 'biysat'.

    ---
    us muqaddas bashar jin ko Allah ta'ala ne sab se pahle nubuwwat se nawaza aur aakhir meiN mab'uuth farmaya, woh hain fakhr e do aalam sayyidu'l mursilin aur khatam al-nabiyyin hazrat muHammad SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, jin ka farman hai - kuntu nabiyyan wa aadamu bayn al-ruHi wa'l jasad - main tab nabi tha jab aadam abhi ruH o jasad ke darmiyan the.

    this question is itself loaded. and we will shortly examine, in sha'Allah, more of saeed sahib's convoluted and self-contradictory 'proofs'.

    if mawlana saeed sahib does not want to accept the explanation of sayyidu'l mursalin SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam (al-iyadhu billah) and make ta'wilat to suit his own opinion. note that RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam himself said:


    [​IMG]
    wAllahu a'alam wa ilmuhu atam.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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  10. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    امام المناظرین دامت برکاتہم العالیہ اس مسئلہ کو مسئلہ نبوت نہیں بلکہ مسئلہ ختم نبوت سمجھتے ہیں اس پر ان شاء اللہ ہم گفتگو کریں گے مگر بہتر محسوس ہوتا ہے اگر ایک سوال کا جواب پہلے مل جائے تاکہ باقاعدہ گفتگو ہوسکے سوال: اس مقدس بشر کا نام کیا ہے جس کو اللہ تعالی نے سب نبیوں کے آخر میں منصب نبوت سے سرفراز فرمایا؟
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    here is a translation of the farsi passage from ashiyat; same book allamah saeed refers to.
    vol.7 p.149


    ashiyat urdu, v7p149.jpg
     
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  12. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    i am talking about the statement of mufti nazir ahmed sahab that rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem was given two prophethoods, i have never read anything like this before. if mufti nazir ahmed siyalvi sahab try to explain this statement then he will have to resort to similar fancy interpretations which allamah sa'eed as'ad sahab is making to prove his point.

    so, even though tasrihaat is a refutation of allamah ashraf siyalvi sahab and allamah sa'eed asa'ad sahab, it doesn't mean that this particular view or opinion (of two different nubuwwah given) is correct as far as i know.

    by the way i haven't read tasrihaat from start to end, i just browsed some parts, so it is possible that somewhere in the book he would have explained what did he mean exactly. if it is just for an illustration then we may ignore it. however, if he presents it as an established, proven creed then it is not in my poor knowledge.

    as for the views of allamah sa'eed as'ad sahab, they are either held by minority, or probably the statements of our elders have been misunderstood. if a minority opinion exists, it does not mean that it is correct, otherwise you'll find some minority opinions in every matter of deen. so, we accept the position of the majority scholars. we do this all the time in our life, for example in medical reports, lab tests, weather reports, politics etc.

    p.s. sorry for corrections done several times, i have a very bad habit to post first and then correct mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
  13. Isaac Amini

    Isaac Amini Active Member

    Brother Noori
    Just for my personal understanding, are you saying that Allama Saeed Asad is presenting ideas which are already out there but not from the early scholars. Or are you saying that before Allama Ashraf Sialvi and Allama Saeed As'ad this idea was unheard of.
     
  14. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    mufti nazir ahmed siyalvi, in his book tasrihaat which is a refutation of tah'qiqat of allamah ashraf siyalvi sahab and a pamphlet by allamah sa'eed as'ad sahab , has taken it literally and thus explains that rasuAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem was given two nubuwwah, first in aalam al-arwah and then second in a'alam al-ajsaad, which is incorrect and many objections can be raised from sa'eed asad sahab.

    the correct position is what you have said, rasulAllah aliahi afDalus salat wat-tasleem was given nubuwwah in a'alam al-arwah, and sent forth to all mankind as a rasul after first revelation in the cave of h'ira.

    i don't know why mufti nazir sahab felt a need to differentiate between nubuwwah in a'alam al-arwah and bi'that (sending forth) in this world as two different nubuwwah.

    i have never read anything like this before, so i would not accept it until it is proven from early scholars and clear and categorical words, not like the interpretations allamah sa'eed as'ad sahab is presenting.
     
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i am listening to the second clip - and mawlana sahib mentions other narrations too and quotes the heading from dalayil al-nubuwwah of bayhaqi. [i can quibble that even though mawlana mentions 'juyilta', it is not there in bayhaqi's dalayil in THIS chapter, but it is just a sidenote].

    shaykh saeed sahib says:

    imam bayhaqi ne kitab likhi hai dalayil al-nubuwwah
    usmein hadees ke jitney alfaz aaye hain na, woh sarey naql kiye hain.

    mata kutibta nabiyyan
    farmaya wa aadamu bayna'r ruhi wa'l jasad

    mata ju'yilta nabiyyan....

    ye saarey alfaz naql kar ke oopar unwan kya qayim kiya hai?
    baab kya bandha hai?

    al waqti'lladhi kutiba fihi muHammadun nabiyya. sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    woh zamana, jis zamaney mein nabiyy kareem alayhi's salam ki nubuwwat ko likha gaya tha; sarkar ki nubuwwat ka faysla huwa tha.

    hazrat e shaykh aage farmatey hain ke Allah ta'ala ne farishton ko bata diya tha, 'farishto, yahi hai jis ke sar par khatm e nubuwwat ka taaj aaye ga. chalo in par durud sharif parhna shuru kardo. to usi waqt sarkar ke nuur e paak par durud parhna shuru hogaya.

    jannat ke darwazon par Allah ne maHbub ka naam likh diya. jannat ke darakhton ke patton par sarkare ke naam ka kalimah likha gaya.

    us waqt nubuwwat milne ka matlab kya hai ke sarkar ki nubuwwat ka iylan huwa tha. sarkar ki nomination huwi thi.

    wagarna nubuwwat to sarkar alayhi's salatu wa's salam ko ghar e hira mein mili thi.

    ===========================

    according to saeed sahib, imam bayhaqi's title of the chapter is proof that nubuwwat was given in the cave of hira - and back then, it was only an announcement.

    here is what imam bayhaqi's chapter looks like:

    dalayil, v2p129.jpg




    ===============

    the main title is "all about biysat" NOT "all about being granted nubuwwat" or "iytaa al-nubuwwah"

    and the preface of this main chapter is the topic, when was he first granted nubuwwat, that is when was it written for him that he was a nabiy. sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    let us take a quick look on what kutiba, kataba means. mufradat imam raghib, p699

    mufradat p699.jpg



    it has various meanings: to establish, to be appointed, to become mandatory and obligatory, and to decide on writing.

    and he explains that first something is intended to be said, then it is said and THEN it is written.

    iradah, to wish, is the beginning - and kitabah or to write is its terminus.

    in taj al-arus, kitabah is also used to mean 'hukm'

    taj v4p101.jpg




    ----------------------
    in the same dalayil al-nubuwwah, a later chapter is titled:

    dalayil v2p131.jpg

    the age of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam when he was sent forth as a prophet.

    in the light of the other hadith: "the first to be created and the last to be sent forth" and the hadith: "i was a prophet when adam was still not alive [that is before his soul came in his body]".

    ----------------------
    in the same dalayil, is a hadith:

    dalayil, v2p146.jpg


    now allamah sahib should explain whether this was before or after the cave of hira? and when the stones and trees said "assalamu alayka ya RasulAllah" sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, was he a prophet or not? and what does tahiyyatu'n nubuwwah mean?

    wAllahu a'alam.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    have two questions:

    1. the last paragraph of the quote from mir'at al-manajih, does it mean that:

    although "insaniyat" (being a human) is not a condition for "ruHani nubuwwat" (spiritual prophethood) rasulAllah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was attributed with the attribute of "insaniyat" even in the aalam-e-arwaH?

    and here the word "insaaniyat" is being used in the same sense as "bashariyat" or some other sense?

    To me it seems that mufti sahib (raHimahullah) is stating that in order to be attributed with "insaniyat", it is not necessary that the ruH (soul) be present in the jasad (body), and, as a corollary to this, it is not necessary that the descent from hazrat adam ('ala nabiyina wa 'ayhis salaatu was salaam) should already have occurred or should occur at all.

    ------

    2. just to be clear, "jismaani" and "ruHaani" nubuwwat are not two different types of prophethood but rather refer to the realms in which the nabi is present. and the station of nubuwwat itself cannot be categorized. He (peace be upon him) was a nabi in the realm of the souls just as he is in the realm of the bodies, before and after the proclamation of prophethood. is this correct?

    jazakAllahu khayran

    wa's salaam
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2016
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    perhaps i have not understood the farsi well. so i turned to mufti ahmad yar khan nayimi raHimahullah who has translated the passage or at least conveyed the meaning of shah sahib in his mir'at al-manajih, 8/20 and new dawateislami edition 8/18-19:

    ---
    mirat v8p20a.jpg


    mirat v8p20b.jpg



    ==========================
    same as above, NEW ED.
    ==========================

    mirat-new-v8p18.jpg

    mirat-new-v8p19.jpg
     
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  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    Isaac kindly change your DP, sunniport doesn't allow pictures or cartoons of living beings.
     
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  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    allamah sahib does not stop there. he tries to prove that shah abdu'l Haq dihlawi supported his [allamah saeed's] view that it was only nomination. nothing could be further from the truth.

    ---
    saeed sahib is reading from a translation. and even there, he simply reads one line that suits his purpose.

    this selective reading can be explained in two ways:

    a) he has purposely omitted the rest of the matter to mislead people. this is deception
    OR
    b) he does not read properly and does not know that something else also exists after the line he reads with such grandstanding.

    if there is a third excuse, i am willing to consider.

    ---
    first here is a repeat post from ashiyyatu'l lam'at, farsi, 4/499


    ashiyat, v4p499a.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    mawlana sahib is wrong on many counts.

    firstly, wajib has many meanings: to be 'proven' 'established' 'decided' 'become necessary' 'imperative' - it does not mean 'nomination'.

    laazim ho gayi. saabit huwi. see taj al-arus, 4/333:
    taj v4p333.jpg



    it can also be used as fallen, as mentioned in surah al-hajj, s22 v36


    taj v4p335.jpg

    =====

    in the examples saeed sahib gives, it means that it became imperative. you can stretch it to mean "nomination", but that is not the ONLY meaning. for example, in the hadith:

    taj v4p334.jpg

    this is the hadith of bukhari #2112.

    umdat v11p326.jpg


    in the mas'alah of khiyar -when a sale is made upon option, it is effected. here wajaba means, "completed" "effected".

    nafiz ho gayi.

    -----

    both the examples of hadith he gives, however, are not the proper analogy here. in both the hadith quoted above RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam himself said: "wajabat"

    but in the hadith we are discussing, it is the sahabi who asked: 'when was it established?' and RasulALlah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam replied to that question - that does not mean it was only 'nomination' because there are other hadith in different words and they say: "i was a nabiy" and shaykh abdu'l haqq said "he was a prophet actually, not just nominated in Divine Knowledge".

    that brings us to his quoting from ashiyyatu'l lam'aat.






     

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