AQ feedback - offshoot of UBK thread

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by AbdalQadir, Sep 29, 2015.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ok thanks. jazak Allah khayr unbeknown. will listen to the speech and come back to the thread in a day or two or three or four. (i'm gonna get fired from both work and home if i continue spending the same kind of time on the forum as i've been doing lately.)

    i appreciate and understand some of the points you mentioned.

    i do understand that the situation is messy and ugly due to the many levels of politics involved (B v M; desi politics with hindus, maybe local gangs are involved too i dunno, etc etc)

    threats of violence to them or against their families?

    yeah i'm appalled by that situation too. another major headache.


    i think we can all sing a song about the troubled times Sunnis are in - a sad song! i will get back to this thread with a fresh mind.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    brother you should listen to the whole of allamah zia ul mustafa's speech he mentions another fatwa that was slapped on him in the past. listen form 21:00 onwards for the specific part. A fatwa was issued by Bahr-ul-Uloom Allama Mufti Abdul Mannan Azmi sahib and allamah sahib.

    this is the only point I agree with. The whole speech should be transcribed and a fatwa should be issued which leaves no room for the opponents to play gimmicks.

    seriously brother, you can think of all sorts of possibilities in other cases but here you end up with just these two. Please try a bit and I am sure you will find others too.

    what if the same was said about each and every mufti of pakistan for not issuing a fatwa of kufr against tahir?

    you must have realized by now that uka is no angel. He has been declared kafir, videos have been put highlighting his gaffes and in the above speech allamah sahib did takfir by name and also spoke of his past crimes.

    And he is still silent about all those gaffes? He did not leave anything unsaid in the urs-e-azizi speech, even hinted these people are kafir, told that if these muftis from Nagpur do not desist he will teach them a lesson at such a place that the whole world will witness. And yet he did not so much as drop a hint that the other side is not spot-clean either?

    This scare-mongering is just to shut the awaam up and nothing more. Politicians never change their spots.

    Allah knows best.
    AbdalQadir likes this.
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    islam is not politics. unless you are doing a munazarah, you don't do things like that; conceal or withhold important information concerning islamic fatawa and issues - proving oneself better or proving the other side wrong is not the objective of muftis/ulama. if there is indeed a nuance, hopefully, in the coming days - ulama will explain why; assuming the fair wind has carried news of ripples in a teacup.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i'm not his spokesperson brother. i just filled you in on what was going on in the threads.

    as i said, apparently obaidullah is a politician. so make of it what you want :)

    again, this is a good opportunity for our ulema to get their priorities right focus on JADEED issues for the age rather than continue living in the past

    deobandi bashing
    radd of wahabis
    usual natkhwanis and a3ras for popularity etc.
    groupie pir politics

    let them start focusing on

    the definitions and boundaries of political discourse for these times (issue relevant right here in this thread)
    science and technology related issues
    the fiqh of multinational companies corporate operations
    business models for coming up with TRULY Islamic credit cards

    teaching the awam Arabic as opposed to narrating fabricated karamaat
    teaching tafseer and fiqh and usool al-fiqh
    teaching hadith sciences and the sciences of rijal

    they are focusing on new issues, but in bits and pieces
    Wadood likes this.
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the thing is if it was hanson or an idiot like tahir, you could have dismissed them straight away.

    Nizamuddin sab (and his attesting muftis) are senior and qualified muftis - as are Azhari Miyan and his side

    no one from either side is a dunce, despite the group politics

    all the muftis from both sides sure as sunshine know of the things random awam like you or me or Aqib or abu Hasan can cite as refutations (or so i'd like to think, else i'd be terribly disappointed)

    i have some pretty blunt questions (on the issue, not for any person on the forum in particular)

    politics :

    1. is this obaidullah's first purported kufr since he rose to fame since the late 80's?
    2. is it his ONLY purported kufr? (apparently there are more as per some linked audios/videos)
    3. if he's been a serial offender, why hasn't he been nabbed a long time back on this or any other charge, by either side?
    4. this kufr itself is more than 10 years old, so why wasn't it brought up earlier? i read in some post the ulema only heard of it now, but what about the other kufriyat elsewhere because apparently, he's a serial offender.
    5. if the ulema from the Bareilly side heard the tape, why didn't they issue a detailed fatwa on the tape itself? they might have not been sure if it's authentically obaid's voice, but they could have easily had the entire speech transcribed and issued a general fatwa on the speaker of the speech.

    fiqh + politics :

    1. i refuse to accept (for now at least) that Mufti Nizamuddin is so sloppy in knowledge (despite intentions or politics) to commit a major blunder on a basic issue. there can be two possibilities:

    a) he is honest and sincere and there really is a nuance he rightly sees to let obaid off
    b) he is dishonest and the fatwa is totally bogus (nuanced or not)

    2. i also refuse to accept (for now at least) that Azhari Miyan and his side are so sloppy in knowledge so as not to catch the obvious (to them) errors in the fatwa of Nizamuddin sab. i think as Muslim scholars, now it is their DUTY* to refute THIS PARTICULAR fatwa if they believe Nizamuddin sab is wrong (for any reason)

    a) if he got a nuance or two wrong, they should correct his error and publicly do so and also inform him, for the sake of the Sunni awam
    b) if the fatwa is bogus like tahir's ramblings, it shouldn't take them more than 20 minutes to issue a refutation and shut this file
    (considering there's so much material us non-scholars on forums can come up with, it would be a walk in the park for them)

    3. SO, if Azhari Miyan's side doesn't refute THIS PARTICULAR FATWA (now they know of it), the possibilities can only be a few

    a) they know the fatwa is wrong and fear obaidullah or Ashrafia for some counter attacks on their own similar gaffes as well
    b) they know the fatwa is right and that there is a nuance obaid can get off on, so they would make themselves look silly trying to refute it, knowing that when they do refute, the first thing Nizamuddin will do is flash the nuance in front of them.

    * Ala Hazrat felt it was his duty to refute the devbandis. i am just saying "their duty" in the implication of religious duty as scholars. not being disrespectful to them suggesting that senior scholars like them have a duty to nobodies like me.
  6. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    all the nonsense that came out of obaidallah's mouth could have been the direct result of his being in a place full of shayateen and darkness, and they put waswasa in his heart. being a feeble heart, he gave into the waswasa and started uttering kufr being laxed out and in trans.

    i also think he is a jahil, not a scholar, and someone who doesn't have understanding of faith
    inquisitive likes this.
  7. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    brother abdalqadir. was it possible for obaidallah to meet the morari after the ram-katha hindu religious dars? such as a public/neutral venue in front of the media. i believe this most likely was the request of the Muslims of gujarat to publicize the meeting and ease tensions.

    morari conducts his pagan duroos for days, but it is possible to meet him after the ceremony is done. otherwise, i think obaidallah is guilty of double kufr
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  8. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    Ala Hazrat wrote a full article, detailing the umpteen kuffriyyat of Ismail Dehlvi.

    Al-Kawkabatu’sh Shihābiyyah fī Kufriyyāti Abi’l Wahābiyyah - available HERE

    Ala Hazrat refrained from takfeer, due to 2 reasons:-

    1. it was rumored that dehlvi did tawbah
    2. dehlvi had long ago passed away.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    dunno, maybe abu Hasan or Sunnistudent can summarize the reasons and nuances for Ala Hazrat's 3adam takfeer of ismail dehlvi, and compare them with the reasons and nuances for thanvi's or gangohi's takfeer.
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    read this part of the istifta to which alahazrat responded:


    points to note:

    1. the questioner is not mentioning an action of the accused - not that they went to a temple or bowed to a pandit or placed flowers at the feet of an idol. He is mentioning just the words "we respect them".

    2. The accused have not used any words of respect - they have merely stated that we respect them.

    3. In his response Alahazrat says, "let alone respecting their demi-gods/leaders/religious feelings ...praising so much as an action of the kuffar is kufr by consensus"

    4. What uka has done is, he did not use the word "respect" but said everything that connotes "respect".

    5. Does this not mean that he has gone farther than the accused whose takfir alahazrat did?
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i am starting to think we need to send isifta to both sides (Bareilly & Mubarakpur) on a bunch of issues.

    jifry's visiting churches and calling christians his brothers and asking Muslims to celebrate christmas.
    the whole common word drama
    hanson's many many issues, including the infamous "i'm sorry, if i can't add rahmatullahi 3alaiha after her name, i'm in the wrong religion"
    nazim's visit to the pope and then saying he's reached high spiritual stations
    hisham kabbani's uncountable gaffes

    Allahu a3lam

    let us hope for the best that maybe this will be kick up a new storm of reform in Islam from the subcontinent and our ulema can define the boundaries for political, multi-ethnic discourse for this post modern era and define the boundaries between good Muslim-politics and perennialism.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
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  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    apparently he's a politician and a representative for the community (Muslims), or some part of it. in politics you can't escape many situations.

    as he stated in his question to Mufti Nizamuddin sab, he was doing 11ween and 12ween programs in gujrat in those days, and in the same time this morari guy was organizing a ram-katha. and apparently the Muslims of the area themselves asked him to visit this guy apparently as a measure of easing hindu Muslim tensions going on in gujrat in those times (godhra riots). as he stated in his istifta, this morari guy's followers/fans were civil and docile towards Muslims unlike the other hindus in other parts of the state.

    i'm not defending obaidullah. just telling you what the real or perceived story is in case you haven't been following the 2 threads.
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    01:25 us waqt insaniyat ki baat chali, aadmiyat ki baat chali, manvta ke udhdhaam ki baat chali to vp singh sab ne mujhse kaha tha ke ubaidullah bhai kabhi mauka mile to morari bapu ke darshan zaroor kar lijiyega (applause)

    01:31 aaj hum is ram-katha me haiN aur morari bapu ko hi haq pahuNchta hai ram ki katha bayan karne ka (applause)

    01:43 ram ko kis tarah se logoN ne dekha, samjha, parkha...

    02:00 meri taarikhe urdu adab ne SRI ram ki haysiyat ko kis tarah janwaya aur pahchanwaya? Mai dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal ki us nazm ka hawal dunga jis nazm ka unwan hi hai ram

    and the rest of the speech - there is no room for any ta'wil - he was praising (doing taHseen and ta'reef of) ram

    as I listen, every sentence that escapes his lips as if carries a sack-load of kufr on it's miserable back!

    04:22 insaaN ki khoi hui azmat ko waaps karwaya


    04:29 sitaji

    04:55 mai bapu ki maujoodgi me apna saubhaag samjhta huN ke apne vicharoN ko aap ke samne do-char minute ki agar ijazat ho to rakhuN

    05:33 ayse atankwaad ke khilaf ladhai ladne ka naam arabi zaban me jihad hai

    06:22 he has labelled virtually all women as being the hindu-godess sita - and who all have been encompassed in this sweep is anybody's guess

    06:25 us azeem naam ko lete hi ......

    06:35 agar phir bhi...........iska matlab ye hai ke HUM (including UKA) SRI Ram ka naam zaban se to lete haiN, apne amal me, apne kartavya me SRI ram ko DAKHIL nahi karte

    so basically he is lamenting that people only speak of ram but do not INDUCT RAM into their practices and actions

    then he brings up with begum sahiba

    07:23 maiN be-adabi smajhta huN

    07:42 maine aap ki dua se taqreeban 42 mulkoN ka daura kiya hai

    08:26 aap ki duaoN ke saath aap se rukhsat hota huN

    08:44 khuda hafiz, aadab, salaam.


    he has done tabjil of morari and ta'Hseen of ram.

    Aqib alQadri likes this.
  15. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    But he shouldn't have been in such a ceremony at all. he should have been miles away from it. ram-katha is religious pagan teaching. it is narrating the story of the pagan character ram and teaching pagan hinduism. the hindus use other religious texts supporting ram's story and keep their pagan religion and kufr alive.

    and these pagan duroos have anti-Muslim sentiments today. hindus yesterday were fasting on ram's birthday ceremony by abstaining from grains. they attended a religious dars called ram-story.

    why was obaidullah, being a Muslim, there? didn't his heart feel/see the darkness and kufr?
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    take the ibarat cited by alahazrat in FR. in my copy of ghamz it is vol.2/p.203

    mas'alah from ashbah:
    if a trader/businessman says: kafirs and the kafir lands (dar al-Harb) is better than muslim lands and muslims; he will not be ruled kafir, unless his intention is that their religion is better (than islam).

    Hamawi in ghamz al-uyun:
    our scholars [Hanafis] are in agreement that whoever praises things concerning kafirs [their beliefs/ideas/practices etc.] has committed kufr. so much that, if a man says: "to not talk during eating is a good thing about magians" or to say: "to not sleep beside one's wife during her periods* is a good thing about them." a person who says thus [both statements] is a kafir.

    i hope that brings context to the apparent sky-earth difference between taHseen and ta'rif.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.

    ghamz 2-203.jpg

    *this not about intercourse, which is Haram. here it is about lying on the same bed as one's wife during her menses.
  17. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran


    Un ke devtaaon aur peshvaaon aur mazhabee jazbaat ka aizaaz dar-kinaar, jo un ke kisi fe'l ki tahseen hi karey, ba-ittefaaq e aimmah, kaafir hai.

    Leave aside respecting their idols (deities) and leaders and their religious sentiments (it is a far more obvious disbelief) - if a person just praises any of their (religious) acts, he is, by the consensus of the scholars, a Kaafir (disbeliever).

    Respect - tazeem, aizaz
    Praise - tahseen, tareef

    In my opinion, this also resolves the "confusion" regarding the import of words
    "kuffar ke devtaon ko izzat dena sareeh kalimae kufr hai"
    "kuffar ke devtaon ki tareef karna kufre sareeh hai"
    "tareef karna" and "izzat dena"

    Seems like a Karamah of Ala Hazrat - he did not leave these things to chance.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015
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  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the first mas'alah on this topic of takfir, in ashbah (and hence, ghamz al-uyun) starts with the sub-heading: tabjil al-kafir kufr.

    to give utmost respect to a kafir is kufr.

    and the first mas'alah is: to salute a dhimmi to respect him, [or out of his esteem] is kufr.

    Hamwi clarifies: it is necessary to restrict this to the event* where the kafir is respected (or given esteem) for his kufr. [ghamz 2/189]

    Hamwi then mentions the case where a rich magian philanthropist was helpful to muslims and was supportive of them by spending a lot of money to help muslims, including aid to build masjids etc. many muslims acknowledge this kindness and held a ceremony to thank and honour him, and gave him awards** in a gathering of many muslims. the mufti felt bad and considered all of them kafirs. his teacher, shaykh al-islam abi'l Hasan replied that repaying kindness and returning favours is from good manners etc., [summarised from the text]

    now deal with this:

    obaidullah did tabjil of morari-bapu not for his philanthropy but for his kufr - he praised him for it. he says: "ram-katha ka Haqq unhin ko pahunchta hai" [something like that, quoting from memory]. he mentioned his wife watches his pravachan on TV and therefore she would say salam to him and gain the blessings [saubagh] of speaking to him.​

    i encourage brothers to ponder over this - and if i have indeed misunderstood the maqSad of Hamwi and ibn nujaym and alahazrat, please enlighten me.

    **they gave him gifts and certainly we do not know what was in vogue at that time; it is similar to a commemorative awards in our age, hence the minor deviation in the translation.

    ghamz 2-189.jpg
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  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    actually, this was a point that i wanted to add, but left it as i joined in the discussion and it was late at night.

    if at all obaidullah wanted a valid excuse - and if he said: i went there to ram-katha, and there surrounded by hindus, i feared for my life and uttered those things, he could escape a ruling, regardless of whether his fear was justified or not.

    because uttering a kalimah-kufr where one fears for his life, so long as his heart is unperturbed concerning true faith/islam, the person will not be ruled a kafir.
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    thank you. do remember that i only promised you my analysis speaking ONLY for myself and as a random nobody among:

    and that i am myself in a state of intellectual vacuum and hence looking for further answers and clarifications. please don't think i'm trying to play an exacting scholar here.

    we can consider this thread as a group exercise to add/deduct from the analysis and add/deduct further queries.


    want to add that one of the main reasons for my sukoot/limbo on the fatwa from Ashrafia (not talking abt anything other than it) is also the backdrop of the godhra incident.

    yes, there was no mob of jansanghis chasing obaid with lathis and trishuls threatening his life unless he said those things, but does he get off doing that with the intention to ease tensions on HIS people being their representative?

    i haven't forgotten that the group he was addressing was not the people who were hostile.

    (in an indian context, at least by the kafirs from their perspective, he would be perceived as a leader/representative of the Muslim community, regardless of how hig/low an opinion which Muslim has on him or which mufti ex-communicated him)
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2015

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