AQ's ulterior motives

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Unbeknown, Dec 3, 2014.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    true.

    The day has come where holding on to ones Iman is like holding on to burning coals. The time will has come when people will burn for aeons in hell for a word which they don't even remember uttering.

    May Allah forgive everyone who is not deliberate in his slips and who is not adamant about his errors.

    wassalaam.
     
  2. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    Ayina e SulH Kulliyat appparently has no substance apart from personal attacks, which I personally doubt. I agree maybe some personal attacks were made (done by members of both parties) but that doesn't mean you disregard everything written.

    AbdulQadirAttari is getting most of his info and material for posts from a Filthy Fitna Mongering blog which is also full of accusation with no proof but who cares about them not providing proof? eh? as long as they attack Shaykh Akhtar Rida and Shaykh Diya al Mustafa, its forgiven.

    We need to be softer in our approach, remember, insulting Ulema or disrespecting them makes Iman Bil Khatima very mushkil. This goes for members of both camps, I see myself as neutral, tilting more towards the two aforementioned Shuyukh due to the piety on issues which is rare in this day and age. I have even heard that Shaykh Diya al Mustafa himself serves people food when they come to his home town. If so, this is amazing for such a big Alim to be so humble.

    I also asked around and I was told that people who don't know the Crux of matters, the full background and those who don't live in the subcontinent won't fully understand the issues. Sometimes, you need to pick up the phone and ring the ulema at Hand, or ask them via Q and A which Shaykh Akhtar Rida does.

    The day has come where holding on to ones Iman is like holding on to burning coals. The time will has come when people will burn for aeons in hell for a word which they don't even remember uttering. The time has come for us to be men and leave our fake names behind and enter the real world.

    Its easy for me to write inquisitive and insult Ulema, its easy for abu Hasan to 'academically' voice his opinion, its easy for AbdalQadir to be rude and harsh towards Sunni Ulema but once our masks are removed, suddenly we're not so brave anymore.

    All I request is talk on this forum how you would talk if people knew your name and where you lived and w'Allahi we would get along better.

    Let's all try to see an Apple from all perspectives before we decide its fresh because otherwise, we'll eat the whole Apple and then realise the other half was laced with poison!
     
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  3. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    You should read the short article I sent and talk to the Shaykh who wrote it. He seems level headed and he has refuted in an elegant manner and tackled the Crux of the matter.
     
  4. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    @ Abdul Qadir

    Have you read the books that followed? i.e. "Aaina e Sullah Kulliyat" by Anees Sehvaani, and the book given in the link by brother Inquisitive? Just curious.
    -----------

    please hold your horses - calling it "buhtan" by senior scholars' is a buhtaan in itself, unless it transpires that there is actually no truth in it. so be patient. maybe it is not just about Misbahi sahab's book.

    you would not expect the senior mashaykh not to know the rules, that we already know. sometimes mashaykh will wait for years and not open the "pandora's box" - just for the sake of benefit to the ummah unless they are forced by circumstances.

    our senior mashaykh are more upright than we can ever aspire to be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
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  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    objectively calling a disgusting buhtan as a disgusting buhtan is not "insulting shuyukh".

    (just so no one accuses me of denying what i said, i also called it despicable, and dirty politics. it is a despicable thing to lay a buhtan against fellow Sunnis. and the very fact that it's a buhtan, it makes the whole saga 'dirty politics')

    again, i know it doesn't appeal to the star studded eyes of a few, but of all people, shuyukh should know that claims need to be accompanied by evidences. other than that, you added some of your own spice (like money-grabber) to my objective criticism, but i'll let that fly

    i didn't demand it from mureeds. some offered themselves to do it on behalf of their shuyukh. i said it's their choice if they wish to do it

    i wish for the evidences to be available in public sphere, one way or another.

    again, the evidences should have been provided right from the get go. that's what Ala Hazrat would have done or expected of those who take the reigns of his legacy after him - as that's fard in deen - the onus of proof is on the claimant!

    your and unbeknown's fixation with DI or Mawlana Ilyas is insane. you can't leave DI/Mawlana Ilyas and talk about Shaykh Yaseen Akhtar and his book for some reason.

    you're making a bunch of assumptions:

    1. you're assuming i'm Attari
    2. you're assuming i have access to Mawlana Ilyas or the ones responsible for publishing the Malfuz copies in question
    3. you're assuming that i agree with/endorse the publishing of the said copies
    4. you're assuming that i am a successful murid on whatever tariqa i'm following, or claim to be successful (it's Qadiri)
    5. you're assuming you know about my associations and influences
    6. like you offered to another member on another thread, and another member offered me on this thread, you're assuming that i have willingly offered to fetch some info or something from DI/Mawlana Ilyas

    how do any of these assumptions help in the touchy topic of certain people leveling a disgusting buhtan of sulah kulliyat against Mawlana Yaseen Akhtar Misbahi and his book?

    --------

    unbeknown, thank you for clarifying your 'moderator' status. a moderator going off on an emotion fueled attack by way of ad hominem, utterly lacking in all objectivity - would be counted as bullying.

    but since you clarified your status and privileges, it shows that we were both on a level field at least - unless of course someone asks you to add Irfan-e-Mazhab o Maslak to the resources! ;)

    i was being completely objective. you went off on all sorts of emotional tangents. inquisitive at least tried to maintain his composure

    -----

    i hope now something by way of objectivity or evidence might come up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  6. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    The only thing which is extremely dispiriting is that AbdalQadir "just wants to see this issue resolved" and he thinks insulting Shuyukh will resolve it or demanding Murids to provide proofs on behalf of the Shaykh or else, your Shaykh is a failure, a tasks, a money grabber and after cheap publicity.

    Let's say I said:
    If Mawlana Ilyas Qadri knew about DI removing extracts of Malfuz which refuted Deos and DI not giving an updated Fatwa on Tahir ul Padri then "Amir e ahlusSunnah" is in reality a stupid old man, sitting on TV who not only doesnt have the courage to refute Deos but rather changes the books of elders to try and please the wahabis. He is just after money and murids and just acts on TV.

    I am not saying he is like this, but it's a IF scenario. AbdalQadirAttari, hope you can find out for me if Mawlana Ilyas aware of the aforementioned issues or else, you're a failure as a murid.
     
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  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    comprehension deficiency is the latest buzz word on the forum now-a-days so lets keep hurling it at each other. Your IF doesn't make a difference to the quality of the words you used.

    me being irked: oh yes cunning innuendos do irk me but more than that I am disappointed. Nevertheless it's nothing compared to how you went ballistic in that thread where you said that all are equally knowledgeable and i took exception.

    As for bringing DI in - that was in response to the new revelation about your associations and a few things about you that were nagging me becoming clearer.

    As for my performance as a moderator that is for those people to decide who gave me that position in the first place. I did not crave it and even asked to be demoted from a staff member to a simple moderator. Fact of the matter is I am only allowed to touch the 'resources' section and if the software allowed me to do it without being a moderator I wouldn 't have been once since I had requested to be demoted further but for that technical compulsion. I have even said that I am incapable and am ready to step down anytime they feel like. This disclosure is for the other readers and not some apology to AQ. I don't care what you think about me being fair or unfair. Or in your very appealing lingo: don't care two hoots :)

    You have proved your immaturity for all to see. So a compliment from you wouldn't make any difference to me.

    it's bit rich of you to talk of star studded eyes given your comparision of the two personalities who are on two different plains.

    Your saying about ijazahs etc. I will not add more on this because it would hurt one side or the other unnecessarily. I unlike you know the limits of civil discourse.

    Azhari miyan or any other scholar did not become great becuase of their mureeds but rather people became mureeds because they percieved them to be great. In the final reckoning it's not who or how many mureeds that counts but just the individual and his deeds.

    As for the topic of this thread- you are knowinly or otherwise doing more harm than good. You can continue your rants with complete disregard for any responsibility so long as the 'fair-minded' mods wish to entertain you.

    It's unfortunate that after only a fews days of amicable discussion it had to come to this.


    Allah knows best.
     
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  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    agreed, janab. different people might consider different shuyukh as sun/star

    i don't have a problem with this common knowledge. all i'm saying that as per Ala Hazrat himself, it is full well possible for someone without ijazas to supersede in knowledge, another highly educated individual. as far as common folks like you and me are concerned, the proof at the end of the day, is in eating the pudding really.

    and again, the point of this discussion here has absolutely nothing to do with DI or Ilyas Attar sahib, for or against. neither is there a known usooli ikhtilaf between DI & Bareilly (one labeling the other as sulah kulli). so i don't know why people are adamant on bringing DI or Ilyas Qadri sahib into the discussion. maybe they feel a distraction is the best way to tackle the topic at hand.
     
  9. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    light that reaches the earth from a billion stars, is not equal to that of the morning sun.

    mawlana Ilyaas Qadri sahib may have a profound effect on his mureeds, but that (with all due respect to him) does not make him equal or more knowledgeable than Mufti Akhtar Raza Qadri sahab. this is common knowledge.

    as far as considering your shaykh as the "best" - nobody has a problem with that.
     
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    inquisitive, many thanks for the link. will see it and surely get back to you or maybe the shaykh concerned
     
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the greatest irony is this ---

    here there is an ACTUAL ISSUE that is open to the world with full evidences - one of labeling other Sunnis as sulah kullis with no evidence

    and the cultish mureeds/students have gone ballistic just because the obvious has been pointed out

    -----------------

    imagine what would have happened if someone leveled a different charge without evidence - against those who have labeled Sunnis as sulah kullis????????

    something to think about for all Sunnis

    ----------------

    yes sir! you have the license to make any accusations you wish, and it is the solemn duty of everyone else to just accept your spiel without uttering a squeak!

    however, Allah forbid should anyone else even state the blatantly obvious!
     
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    that's it unbeknown - ad hominem is the way to go!

    sorry to break it to you, but Ala Hazrat has himself said that a person with no ijazas can supersede a scholar with ijazas and certifications. between Ilyas Attar Sahib and Azhari Miyan, whatever is the case, it will manifest itself to the observer, and different observers might come to different conclusions.

    the sweet irony of all this is that i'm not defending DI or a DI-personality here, nor addressing any disputes between DI or Bareilly, and i'm not even aware of any dispute at this level between DI and Bareilly (where one accuses the other of sulah kulliyat). so this argument is idiotic at best.

    oh boy! you used the word to imply some sort of a prediction or certainty on a matter where hard real life evidence is required. i was just negating that context.

    again - DI or any of its positive or negative aspects are not the issue here. so it is really embarrassing for you as a mod on here to introduce red herrings!

    looks like i really struck a cord with you! and it seems like you're behaving like the cult member here.

    your first argument without a red herring (but still ad hominem). nope i have no agendas.

    the only people who have agendas, it seems, are those who believe they have the license to label other Sunnis as sulah kullis and not provide any evidence for it. don't worry i don't consider myself as a shaykh or muballigh or anyone who can do islaah of others.

    all said and done, again, collating these agenda and DI arguments would only be valid if DI actually has an open agenda against Muhaddithe Kabeer or anyone else (much like the fiasco going on between Bareilly & Mubarakpur).

    if there really is no DI-Bareilly dispute (on usool), then that only proves that i only speak for myself. but given your star studded eyes, i don't expect you to understand that!

    would be pretty big headed of me if i thought i can resolve this issue sitting on a pc. the issue needs to be resolved by those involved. it needs to be resolved, as in life in general.

    it seems you too deserve that gold star in reading and comprehension.

    i said, IF the issue is not resolved and the claimants don't furnish evidences, then Maslak-e-Ala Hazrat will be reduced to a mafia or a cult with Bareilly as its headquarters, and i stand by my word.

    secondly, i'm the last person to shy away from speaking my mind on whoever i think to be a nonSunni or just an overall societal nuisance. do a search and you will even see me calling mufti akmal an uwailim for not addressing an issue directly, even at a conceptual level, only because the question and answer were directly related to tahir.

    you will see me openly changing my stance on people like jifry or others

    if i had to say something against Tajush Shari3ah or Muhaddithe Kabeer or Maulana Ilyas or Mufti Nizamuddin or anyone else, trust me (because you have a propensity to trust without any evidence), i would be the last person to hold back or fear being banned or anything else.

    it seems it has really irked you - the fact that i mentioned that the one making the claim is obligated to provide evidence for his claim.

    it also seems to have irked you that i called the act of labeling other Sunnis as sulah kullis without any evidence for exactly what it is - a buhtan, a disgusting, despicable act, and dirty politics.

    if evidence for the claims is published in india, or brought forward on this forum, i promise to you on oath, i will retract my words!

    says more about you than me.

    it's amusing that you bring in the DI card, when there is no known major usooli dispute between DI or Bareilly (like Sunni-sulah kulli), or no known agenda that DI is playing to against Bareilly or vice versa. it is even more amusing (and pathetic) that you mention DI and cult psychology when i am mentioning Yaseen Akhtar Sahib. wonder what you would have said if i really did address DI or Ilyas Qadri Sahib!

    it shows the desperation of your star-studded eyes.

    -------

    of the few years i've been on this forum, despite any right or wrong disagreement between myself or any moderator, and despite what i think of any moderator's stance on an issue or what they think of mine, i have always held that Sunniport mods are extremely fair and balanced individuals who think rationally. i'm not saying this to score a favorable point with them. this is a first, and unfortunate, that i can't say the same about you (not that it matters to you or me, what we think of each other).

    i believe you don't deserve to be a moderator on here and you will run this place into the ground, making it a groupie fan club for a select few people with a cult mindset, bullying others who don't adhere to the cult's status quo. if at all the reigns are handed over to you, the place won't retain its character as a robust Sunni forum dedicated to independent thought within the confines of the Shari3ah and independent of any baggage of shakhsiyat parasti. stating the truth or the blatantly obvious might even become against the new rules you might put in place. just my opinion on you being a moderator after seeing your unfair attitude on here. i really do hope you report to someone senior to yourself, if at all you're left as a moderator on here.

    -------
    salams
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Well! That explains a LOT (if true and infact it is really more than possible), a few dozen posts at the very least - especially his claim that mawlana ilyas is as knowledgable as huzoor azhari miyan - something that no one in control of his rational faculties will say (without disrespecting mawlana ilyas) - who would've thought that the person bashing everyone for cult mentality is himself so deep into it!

    Add to this the fact that he accused me of behaving like a batini just because I used the word 'baseerah' which is a normal word even praised in ahadeeth shareef when DI itself is well known for using DREAMS to promote itself! Talk of acting like an esoterist!!

    It's really sad that he now resembles more to the people who come here with agendas but hide behind 'sincere intentions and islaah' who he used to lambast - faqeerKhan seems to have left a lasting impression on him!

    He speaks of wanting to 'resolve' the issue and his method? Compare senior and respectable scholars to mafia and cults and what have you. Pretty mature way of going about things. Deserves that sarcastic gold-star he awarded to snaqshi.

    I wonder if mawlana ilyas will like to have such an uncouth person for a mureed! Really 'meetha' 'islami bhai' this.

    Brother inquisitive thanks for stating things plainly but you must have realized that plain things don't make an impression on minds pickled with cult psychology.

    Sigh.
     
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  14. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

  15. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    Actually, we talked on PM as the brother requested. You need to stop assuming wrongly about a Muslim brother.

    I asked a few people regarding this issue and they said Shaykh Akhtar Husain of India has written a reply to Shaykh Yaseen.

    We all want this issue to be resolved but seriously, the way you're going about it isn't going to resolve anything but add fuel to the fire.

    If you really want a reply to your objections then I repeat, go to the people who would know about it and stop causing Fitna on Forums. I understand that proof is needed for an accusation but if you want this proof, shouldn't you ask the accuser. Not people on a forum who hold Aqidat with the Shuyukh.
     
  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i'm not begging anyone on the forum to provide proof though it would be nice if someone close to the shaykh in question did. people supposedly close to the shaykhs in question had previously offered to provide this evidence and stepped back. i know better now.

    i'm just updating my thread and showing this despicable and evil act against a Sunni scholar for what it is.

    remember, providing proof is the job of the one making the accusations,

    so unless such convincing proof comes along, i will keep on updating this thread from time to time and keep on reminding people just how ugly and evil this act of fitnah-mongering and dirty politics by labeling Sunni scholars as sulah kullis is.


    though i find it funny how people offer to

    LOL at the above on another thread and then your post here. another poster before you did the same and then couldn't cope with the burden of providing proof. the shaykh-in-question's own mureeds can't approach him and get the evidences from him, and they ask others to do it. hilarious :)

    it's a tragedy that you don't see the fact that the onus of proof lies on those making the accusations,

    and they should have furnished the evidences at the time that they made the accusations.


    why should i contact this or that shaykh for evidences?

    you do know that the very first thing a qadi should know is that the onus of proof is on the one making the claim????!!!!!!

    whoever makes the accusations should make the evidence public himself if he believes in integrity and amanatul 3ilm, or else his mureeds can do the job for him.

    was salam
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  17. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    Yes. You can contact the Shaykh and initially ask him whether he labelled Shaykh Yaseen as a sulH Kulliy or not. Then ask him for the reasons. No one is saying you wont get an answer but there's a time and place for everything.

    You're being stupid. You say it's not your right to beg for evidences but you've been doing exactly that. Begging for evidences on a forum with few murids of either Shaykh. Contact those CLOSE to the Shaykh if you want answers, don't keep banging your head saying that you're not getting your answers and then complain you need need to beg them for evidences.

    Okay, agreed, you don't need to beg them for evidences but why on earth are you begging people on a forum?
     
  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    then as a scholar it's his duty to give evidences for his claims and accusations. not everyone in the world is his mureed or admirer who will digest everything he says without wanting to know anything more about the issue.

    greater men than them were cross questioned for their positions and multiple times and they very humbly replied to all queries.

    that is just appeal to authority.

    just imagine if Ala Hazrat told us "deobandis are retards. just take my word for it."

    and now we tell the deos "do you really think Ala Hazrat would call your akabir as deviant khubathaa without evidence?" we would be stuffing our feet in our mouths every day of our lives!

    if these shuyukh called Allama Yaseen Akhtar Qibla as sulah kulli, they should back their claims up with evidence.

    that's great then. if so many scholars were present and they listened to this and agreed with it, maybe one of them could provide the evidence for labeling other Sunni ulema as sulah kullis. the evidence can't be so secretive.

    it seems Allama Yaseen Akhtar Misbahi himself is unable to get the evidences out of Tajush Shari3ah or Muhaddithe Kabeer, and hence his open letter style communique stating that if any of these shuyukh can provide evidences for their claims, he will make public tawbah (read the docs i linked)

    it's not wajib on me to beg them for evidences for their claims. it is something i can choose to do or not do.

    it is fard upon them to provide evidences for their claims and accusations! if their khulafaa or students or mureeds want to provide this evidence on their behalf, that's their choice.

    until such evidence is provided - this accusation can only be considered as an evil sin of leveling a buhtan against a fellow Sunni.

    -------

    again. just imagine if the shoe was on the other foot.

    if someone from mubarakpur had labeled Muhaddithe Kabeer as a sulah kulli, all hell would have broken lose.

    -------

    yet again, of all people, scholars, muhadditheen, and qudaat should be aware that to make any claims or lay any accusations, evidence is required.

    -------

    this issue is important for if it isn't resolved, maslak-e-Ala Hazrat will be made into a mafia or a cult with Bareilly as its headquarters, and that is the ground reality

    -------

    Tajush Shari3ah's brave stance against padri tahir is commendable and admirable. the Muslims of the subcontinent should acknowledge that and be indebted to him for that.

    however, whoever has labeled Allama Qibla Yaseen Akhtar Sahib or his book as sulah kulli without furnishing compelling evidence, and whoever has blindly supported such fitnah-mongering without ascertaining any facts, both these acts are utterly sick, disgusting, and pathetic to the core - lest they provide compelling evidence for such claims and accusations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  19. Contemplating Sufi

    Contemplating Sufi New Member

    AbdalQadir is murid of Ilyas Attar Sahab fyi.o_O
     
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  20. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    Tajush Shari'ah also has spoken out against this book. Not saying the book or author are SulH Kulliys BUT do you really think they would just say this book is SulH Kulliy without evidence. There were also many scholars present on the occasion of Urs e Ridwi when this book was labelled as 'opening the door to SulH Kulliyat'.

    My arz to AQ, contact Tajush Shari'ah, MuHaddith e Kabeer, or some of their senior Khulafa. If you can't get your answers on a forum then why don't you go directly to the source? What you won't get from drop of water, surely you'll get it from the sea.
     

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